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Introduction: Madge sets the stage on outdated corporate rules affecting working parents

So you know when you tell your kids about life before cell phones, how we used to run to the landline to see who’s calling, and how we used to memorise our friend’s phone numbers and phone cameras meant no second chances?

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We did school projects with encyclopedias and we used maps or worst case scenario, we had to ask for directions because plans weren’t flexible.

It’s like we’re talking about a different world.

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So much has changed, yet corporate rules are still pretty much the same, despite technology making it easier than ever to evolve.

Working parents are required to play by the rules designed for a world that doesn’t exist anymore.

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But what if all of that could change?

I’m your host, Marge, and this is Moments.

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Today, I have the absolute pleasure of speaking to someone who knows all about breaking barriers and updating outdated narratives.

Vanessa Raffaelli, welcome to Moments.

Thank you.

Vanessa is a mom of three.

She was the editor of Cosmopolitan magazine and the director of content that Associated Media Publishing.

1:28

Meet Vanessa Raphaely: Background and her initiative “The Village” for mothers

One of her most notable accomplishments is The Village, a Facebook group that brought South African mothers together in the most amazing way.

In the same space where social media trolls are dominating the conversation, camaraderie, compassion and crying on each other’s shoulders is the name of the game.

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Vanessa, you’re such an inspiration.

Thanks for joining me today.

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Speaker 2

It’s your pleasure.

1:55

Speaker 1

When some modern moms are caught up in the most impossible paradox, We have to work like we don’t have kids, and we have to parent like we don’t have careers.

Have you personally experienced that?

2:11

Modern Motherhood Paradox: Balancing work and parenting for 25 years

Well, of course I have because I’m a working mother and have been for the last 25 years and we all have of course, in South Africa.

It helps if you’re part of the lucky few who are privileged, who can have another mother to help you.

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But all of us, I think, strive to succeed and always have to put that balance in in the picture how much it means to us to achieve our own dreams and goals and at what cost to our family, our children, and that part of ourselves that is mothering or parenting.

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Speaker 1

That’s so true.

So back in the day, women accepted these rules because they had to prove their worth in a man’s world.

Your own mom, the legend Jane Raffaelli wrote in a book that she barely took maternity leave.

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And today that’s a rarity for even like the normal people like me.

Would you say that was just the price to pay to stay in the game back then?

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Historical Context: How women’s workforce roles have evolved — and still face hurdles

She was so unusual, there were so few of her in in the game.

I mean I AM 60 years old and I arrived on the 1st, on the day of the 1st edition of Fair Lady.

And she was not a practised editor at the time and she was English and she was a young mother.

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So she had to prove herself.

I think actually, unfortunately, nothing’s very much changed.

We still have to compete as if things were equal, and yet they’re not because of the invisible and visible work that women do that men don’t.

Of course, that assumes that you have a partner who might, who may or may not be helping, certainly may or may not be pulling their equal weight.

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But in this country, unfortunately, the reality for most is that they are not for most, but for many is that there are so many single mothers.

And then it is you against the world.

And worse than the world, I think really is you against your own inner critic, your own sense of punishment, punitive voice that says you should be doing more for them, for it and less for you.

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And that’s where women have found themselves.

And on that I think nothing’s changed.

Possibly it’s even got worse as our market has shrunk as economic for as opportunity is not manifested as it should for all women of all colours, races and creeds in this country.

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In many ways, I think it’s worse right now.

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Speaker 1

In some ways we actually have come a bit of a way so we we’re not wearing pantyhose to work everyday and COVID did kind of bring about some change in terms of working from home.

But why do you think it’s so hard for companies to adapt?

4:59

Corporate Challenges: Why businesses struggle with work-life balance policies

Think because there’s no fat in our economic system.

If we were in a more buoyant economy we would have a very different story because risk taking and enthusiasm and optimism are essential for thriving.

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You have to have those factors at play.

And so much of South Africa is in post traumatic shock still today, whether it’s from our apartheid history or whether it’s from COVID or whether it’s from the Zuma years.

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It’s been a very long time since we had economic winds blowing in our favour.

So too much of what any entrepreneur in this country is doing is just struggling to survive.

And that means the restriction on grand gestures.

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And it shouldn’t be a grand gesture to invest in 5050% of the population, but often if you’ve got, if you are yourself struggling to achieve your own goals, it’s hard to give someone else a break at the same time.

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So we’re caught in this loop of economic stagnation and bad management.

That being said, I still think South Africa is an incredible place for a resilient entrepreneur.

It’s still a place where there are many ways to sell a pot of soup and entrepreneurship.

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I think for most of us, as we’ve watched corporate life shrink and change and become more closed off, actually I think entrepreneurship is more and more important and possibly that’s what we should be teaching at schools and in tertiary education.

6:45

Rise of Entrepreneurship: How moms are pivoting around corporate limitations

You’re so right, Vanessa.

And the sad reality is that we see mothers giving up dream jobs, taking giving up promotions, or leaving the workforce altogether just to spend more time with their families because it’s not mom compatible.

7:02

The Hustle Mentality: Mothers finding new ways to balance family and career

You know what I see?

I see everyone hustling.

I don’t see people giving up.

I see people making a plan.

I think there’s a part of South Africa which is, I don’t know if I can say this, but Forkwood and Mark a plan.

It’s something where I see the time of relying on an employer as being over.

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I see people with side hustles turning into man hustles.

I see people trying 1234515 ideas of ways to put the extra into the family pots.

I think in the absence of a corporate ladder that we can climb, the expectation that either business or the government will offer us a clear path forward, people have become.

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I’m very self reliant and humbled as well.

I mean, I know for sure with myself when I walked out of my big job and said goodbye to a regular paycheck, to dividends, to business class travel, to an assistant, to all the things which reassured me that I was on track.

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I had to face the fact that I was on my own.

And I thought at that point, I’m 50 year old white woman, no one is going to employ me.

I was right.

Actually.

They wouldn’t only not employ me, they wouldn’t take a phone call from me and I had to face the fact that I was on my own.

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So how in do you, even with all the luck in the world and privilege which I’ve said I’m the beneficiary of, how do you make a go for yourself?

You become humble, you scale down, you put your head in the yoke, you try, you make an effort, you dismantle any expectation you had, and you get to work.

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Sometimes it really doesn’t work.

It can take a long time.

I tried many ideas before I stumbled on my next path.

But all of those lessons I think are common to every single self data.

So it’s not ever just the luxury of do I work or do I stay home and look after children anymore?

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Because if we have partners, there’s no saying that they will have a big enough salary to support that.

And also I think in the ways we have come as expectations of ourselves.

We do have our dreams and our drives and and we need them as well.

But I think what has gone is for the minority of this country that had it and, and and unfortunately for the majority of this country who expected it and hoped for it was external help necessarily.

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So you know, one of the things that I say in my book, we wrote, I wrote a book at some point our parenting was called.

9:55

Resilience Spirit: Vanessa on perseverance amid South Africa’s economic struggles

I was a perfect parent until I had children.

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Speaker 1

Brilliant.

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Speaker 2

Because it was about the South African spirit which I think is so well, it’s so well crafted for these tough days because we are really like up our rugby team, all of us.

We’ve got a pirate spirit of pushing forward, of doing the hard work, of not expecting ourselves to be perfect, but always having a plan, always having the the belief to come back on, to actually push through the hard times.

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And it really is as simple as that.

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Speaker 1

You are so right and what you just said about not getting that phone call or not having that opportunity as a 50 year old woman is such a frightening thought because women serve by default the skill set that is lost in the corporate world.

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By not looking at women in their 50s and 60s, that has a direct impact not only on the backbone of our society moms, but also on their mental health and our economy as a whole.

11:04

Ageism in Employment: The overlooked potential of women in their 50s and 60s

Why do you think this is not recognised in the corporate world?

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Speaker 2

I think it’s very simple.

I think the fodder, the the fodder of big corporates are young people who are unencumbered, who can be hired for cheaper and who can work harder because they don’t have the compromises of parenting and and of aging.

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And as I said, the economy is such that everyone is looking for a cheaper win in that situation.

Experience talent comes with a price.

But I think that it’s so easy to bemoan the situation we find ourselves in.

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It won’t change anything because you can set your shoulder to a corporate to try and change it.

You will be an Ant.

It takes a lot to shift old norms and how they were.

What I think sometimes we have to do is take a deep breath and look at ourselves.

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The success stories that I have seen have not been people in their 50s or 60s, forties, 50s or 60s being promoted and ending up running big corporations.

It’s people who often were balanced out by no will of their own.

12:17

Navigating Corporate Norms: Strategies for older working women

They aged out because they became expensive or because they were not the right colour or for whatever reason were left to their own devices out in the desert.

And who actually had to market plan.

And funny enough, at that point, I think our natural strength, resilience, South African fundamental toughness comes into play.

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And like I said, so many of the success stories I’ve seen have been from people who have had to make a plan for themselves.

I’m thinking of a family that did it together as a family at the Chasing Bees story.

You should interview them as well.

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So it’s off the tracks.

But I’m thinking of a family who did it, who started off by selling a house, by moving to a cheaper town, by starting up in they were fashion.

They had fashion experience starting up in pop ups and built their brand from zero to a huge national brand now, just by hard work, but also by humbling themselves, by picking up the the suitcases and by slipping those rails of clothes to pop ups at the start of the morning and sitting there until the end of the day.

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When you’ve been in a cushy corporate job, it’s hard to recall down to that.

But yet often that is the only way and the best way because self-sufficiency and independence is actually something so precious.

When you think about that, it’s when you think about building something as a family together or building something from home.

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Again, of course there is massive sacrifice.

But when you talk about how you try to balance the two things, work and family, often coming back to the home, starting with that bowl of soup, how can we all sell?

This is actually the best, the most healthy way to do it.

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And if you think of the immigrant story in so many countries, that’s how they do it.

If you think about the corner, the corner stores and how cornerstore parents 3 generations down have neuro neuroscientist children or doctors or dentists, that’s often the way they did it.

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So I think one of the dangers that we have as women, as yeah, as women or as frustrated people in a country without massive support from government is to bemoan the fact of how it is.

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But yet to carry on trying to achieve within those frameworks.

I really would say sometimes it takes stepping or being pushed out to actually find a way.

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Speaker 1

Down.

It’s taking that risk that’s the biggest challenge.

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Speaker 2

Unfortunately, sometimes you don’t have a choice and it is life is risky.

You know, I, I, I often think it would be lovely to be born in Sweden, you know, but we’re not, we’re not, we’re here.

And so those things that flexibility, resilience, ability to think divergently, ability to put ego and to put dreams on hold to gain another dream, I think is a necessity in South Africa.

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I mean the way you go would go mad here is to say if only and there is no if only.

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Speaker 1

In South Africa, it’s such a wonderful place to actually live and raise kids in because I very often feel like the diversity and the challenges and the triumphs that come from those challenges are so unique.

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And you’ve mentioned our resilience before.

I don’t know how people in other countries actually teach their children that because our kids are faced with dire situations everyday.

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We see unemployed people next to the road and so many other things.

But we also have this incredible hope and we come together in the most amazing ways and I love that.

I love sharing that with my.

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Speaker 2

Kids, I think the world has gone, absolutely.

Personally, I think the world has got mad.

I think that there is no grass is greener elsewhere, actually.

I mean, I think that we’ve had such a long time of believing that this is a terrible place delivered.

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The only shock is that other places have their problems as well.

That being said, a child’s strength comes from parenting.

I believe 100% doesn’t take two parents, doesn’t really take a village.

It takes one parent, one adult who believes that there is a solution to whatever problem faces you.

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Not an adult who thinks that they can wipe away every problem because that’s not life.

We know that helicopter parenting, that lawn mower parenting, the hotel’s parenting, all of these things don’t work.

What does work is having a parent who believes that when faced with sets of problems, that human ingenuity, human courage, human resilience, that I spoke about, human bravery, human optimism can generally find a path through it.

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And it won’t be a straight path.

Can be a zig or zag, it can be up one Rd. reverse, back down again.

It can be full.

That’s human nature.

Can be fall flat on your face, that’s human nature.

But anxiety, bitterness, a feeling of hopelessness is a cancer that is fed through the mother’s milk.

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And so that’s why I’m always so clear that if the adult in the story isn’t OK, no one’s OK.

And so that’s why, again, I’m always saying you have to balance your own dreams, your own hopes with their needs and your needs to be with them.

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It doesn’t have to be a big story.

It can be a beautiful small story.

When I was at my most depressed and my most hopeless about my children.

And I promise you, I’ve had three teenagers, 4 actually, I’ve had four teenagers.

And so I know about hopeless, really do.

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But I went to a psychologist who told me, have you educated your children?

Have you given them a roof across above their head?

Have you got enough for a hospital plan?

You are winning.

That is entry level good parenting.

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The rest is up to you.

And so I think often we’re very hard on ourselves as parents because this is a tough world.

It’s not a world that affirms us all that easily.

But what does, what you can do is say I am good enough, my dreams are worthy and my children are worthy of being loved.

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Let me get to work.

And it’s rich coming from me.

I know because I am a child of privilege.

But I have watched and admired and seen.

I know we are a country of people who do that.

Years ago we were launching Oprah Magazine, perhaps you remember, and we did some research and we asked, I think it was 8000 women who were the, the, a potential audience for Oprah, who their role model was.

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And I was very anti this story cause I this question.

Cause I thought I was gonna be Madiba, of course.

And it wasn’t.

And maybe you can guess who the role model was.

It was their mothers.

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Speaker 1

Mothers.

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Speaker 2

And those mothers, because of the demographic, were largely domestic workers.

And again, that comes back to the dream.

If the mother makes a plan and if the mother parents with hope and optimism that either threw herself, there will be a better day or for her.

20:03

Children now will be a better day.

That child has a chance, and that’s all you can ask for in life is a chance.

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Speaker 1

That’s so beautiful and so inspirational, Vanessa.

So moms who are stuck in a working environment that do not work, that’s not compatible to her needs, what practical ways can she advocate for change?

20:29

Building Community: The power of collective advocacy for workplace change

One of the most powerful ways, of course, is to form a collective, is to gather people around you.

That’s why I started the village.

My daughter always jokes that it was because she was such a terrible teenager that I needed some friends to help.

And so as a result, I have 63 1000 friends on Facebook now, 160,000 on Instagram, 50,000 on subscription.

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My daughter says she’s still not sure that’s enough.

She’s 25.

I said I’d better be enough, but jerking aside, the only way you can ever achieve any kind of change is to find your village and find your voice.

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And So what I would say in in any, in any situation that seems appears to be unfair or where you appear to be voiceless is do those two things.

It’s actually very good advice for women as we age because we become invisible, as we all know, we we wear the cloak of invisibility and the only way out of that is to have a constant constituency.

21:32

So you need to gather people around you.

If there are enough women in that business that have the same need and if they are determined enough, they can shift it somewhat.

21:47

That being said, as I said in the beginning, I think it is difficult to change when people are watching their own pennies.

But if you are voiceless, if you are isolated, you’re never going to be happy.

We are meant to be connected.

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Network effect where we reach out and hold each other is the only way that human beings can survive.

So for me, the only way you could do that is find other like minded souls.

Gather together and find your voice.

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Speaker 1

That’s so true and sound advice.

My last question is how can women in management positions help the women on the ground?

How?

How can they assist in changing the narrative for working parents to be more friendly environment for mothers?

22:37

Speaker 2

You know, I found that kindness is a superpower.

22:40

Supporting Women Leaders: How women in management can uplift others

Um, I think if you are talking about if you are talking about ways to actually thrive as opposed to survive, you cannot do it without, in the words of the great Diana Ross, reach out and touch somebody’s hand.

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So the first thing you have to do is, is continue to be open minded to and open hearted to other people.

You know, people often ask me how the village over so many platforms manages to stay supportive and Unhostile does because kindness is non negotiable.

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It’s also been my superpower.

The fact that I’ve generally been nice when I’ve been in need and you will always be in need in your life.

People have rallied around to help and that’s when I say a superpower.

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I don’t say it lightly.

So it’s about enlightened self-interest as well.

If you want a good life, you’ve got to help people.

If you want to be a person who can sleep well at night, you’ve got to roll up your sleeves and get dirty and actually help someone else.

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It’s very lonely there at the top when you have got there by trampling on other people.

I mean, there are a lot of people who don’t need to feel good about themselves, but when their moment comes, it’s, it’s a stark reminder that actually to human success is not merely success.

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Human success is warmth.

Human success is connection.

Human success is community.

And that cannot be done by just looking after #1.

24:23

Kindness & Community: Final thoughts on compassion in work and life

Vanessa, you are such an inspiration and I’m so grateful that you came here today to share your knowledge with me.

And this brings us to the final five.

Every single guest on Moments will answer the following five questions.

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So Vanessa, which part of your human experience or what I like to call the HX, was change the most by being a mom?

24:49

Final Five Questions: A candid rapid-fire segment with Vanessa

Can answer.

I’ve got 2.

Actually now that I’ve thought about it.

OK, I’ve got 2 answers to that question.

Is that cheating?

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Speaker 1

No, it’s.

24:55

Speaker 2

Not #1 patience.

I think patience is another parental superpower and it’s absolutely essential because you learn with children that nothing is on your timeline and nothing is that suits you.

25:10

And the only way forward is collaborate, compromise, you know, be patient, take time.

And that has been incredible for me.

It, it really has helped in parenting and I would like to recommend it to every parent.

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And then the second thing is optimism.

Um, I think when you are young, you can be overwhelmed, you can be terrified.

It’s natural part of, of living an untested life.

You haven’t had the experience to know that you can get through.

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But yet optimism is a superpower just as much as patience and just as much as kindness and just as much as everything else I’ve had.

And that sense of teaching, believing, of truly believing that my children will have a good outcome, even when I’ve been absolutely terrified, has been very soothing and life changing for me.

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I think both of those things have resulted in me being much calmer and more peaceful as a person.

And that’s actually a lovely way to go into your last 20-30 years of life filled with peace and calm.

And you can’t do it without optimism and patience.

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Speaker 1

Wow, something to really think about with my young kids.

So Vanessa, what are you most grateful for on your mom journey?

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Speaker 2

My husband, I have the most wonderful.

I I really have the most wonderful husband.

He came to me at a point when my hormones were saying enough with movie stars, enough with movie producers, enough with bad boys, with private jets.

26:51

I had those find someone who you can trust and respect and I found him and he’s never given me pause to re address that evaluation of who he was.

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Speaker 1

That’s so beautiful.

And what would you do differently looking back?

27:14

Speaker 2

I don’t think you can do anything differently.

You live in the moment and if so long as you live with gratitude and humility, that moment will be okay.

Because you could never be.

We don’t have hindsight and we don’t live in a perfect world where you can correct your mistakes.

27:34

You can only do your best as you stumble along.

And I think stumbling along with good intentions and trying to do your best, trying to be present, trying to be conscious, trying to be kind, is actually good enough.

27:48

Speaker 1

I love your insight.

So what are you telling your own kids about their hunting?

27:54

Speaker 2

Leave me alone, I want to read a book and please when you bring your mother and a nice cup of tea or a Scotch on the rocks.

28:02

Speaker 1

Sound advice.

28:04

Speaker 2

OK, another thing I tell my children is I’ve spent more on you than I would have if I’d gone skiing every year.

Can you not be nice to me?

No, that’s another thing I can say.

You cannot have my credit card.

A T-shirt without a label is just as good as one with be.

28:24

Think what else?

Be nice to your brother and sister.

28:27

Speaker 1

I also say that and mine’s still small.

28:30

Sibling Relationships: Hopes for children’s lifelong support and forgiveness

So the thing that I wish for more than anything is that they love each other and they have each other’s back and they are each other’s greatest supporters, cheerleaders, and that they forgive them.

Because I think true love is more to do with how much you forgive someone you love and how much you love them.

28:51

And I hope they forgive each other for being imperfect and yet they have each other’s back for the rest of life.

Because I have a very good relationship with two of my siblings and I couldn’t be without them.

29:05

Speaker 1

That is every mother’s dream Yeah, my kids are five and seven and they fight every single day.

So when I hear someone with older kids say they hope they’ll have each other’s backs, I I definitely have the same wishes for my.

29:20

Speaker 2

Kids.

29:21

Individual Connections: The importance of unique time with each child

My advice as a parent trying to trying to nurture that is to be present for each child face to face.

Make time, unique time for each child’s that that child always knows that they are their acknowledged that they’re heard, that they’ve seen that you are uniquely connected to them.

29:43

My own mother says her only regret is that she didn’t spend enough time with us alone.

And I think that really does help, because it’s not hard to forgive a parent if they fail.

It’s hard to forgive a parent if they let you down, if they don’t listen to you, if they don’t hear your pain, if they write off your grievance or your fears or whatever it is.

30:13

And you know, I come from a generation where it was very much like smile and wave, you know, just buckle down.

And that’s one thing that I would say is that if, if you, if you can connect individually with your each child and hear them often when they are bitching about their siblings because it’s natural, but make them hear that not at the cost of another child, but that you are there for them.

30:39

That can really help.

30:41

Speaker 1

Thank you, very good advice.

My last question is what is your North star when you are making parenting decisions?

30:51

Parenting Reflection: Using self-reflection to guide decisions and avoid regrets

My North Star in everything is really Hold up a mirror to yourself.

You’re alone in bed at night.

You’re gonna go to your grave alone.

Who do you wanna be?

And so I try always to do myself proud.

31:06

I always think I am my own role model.

I don’t want to have regrets for myself about the choices I’ve made.

And I think if you’ve listened to me for this time, you’ll hear what the value systems are that drive me, but I really don’t.

31:24

I promise you.

I really don’t care what other people think of me because I assume that my own inner critic is tougher than anyone else could be.

So I hold up a mirror to myself and I say, are you good enough only for yourself?

31:41

Have you been kind enough only for yourself?

Have you been patient enough and humble enough only for yourself?

And if the answer is yes, and could be that I put the bar quite low for myself that day when the kids were young, some days I was like, okay, the only thing these kids are going to achieve today is that they have brushed their teeth.

31:59

That’s good enough as well, because being kind goes inward as well as outward.

32:04

Speaker 1

When I said thanks so much for joining me today, I’ve definitely learned a lot from you and I’m very sure the listeners will do.

32:12

Speaker 2

Thank you for having me.

32:13

Redefining Success: Closing thoughts on balancing motherhood and professional life

It’s such a great honour.

So the future is not about choosing whether you’re going to be a great mom or a great professional.

You can definitely have both.

It’s just about rewriting the rules, and the rules are what you make it.

32:29

You live the life you create.

Until next time, bye.

This episode of Moments is brought to you by Babies-R-Us and Toys-R-Us Your Village.

Through every messy, magical step of parenting, from first kicks to toddler chaos, we are here with love, guidance, and all the essentials you need to thrive.

32:52

Because every moment matters.