0:00

Breaking the Mold: Stereotypes About Female Leaders

So, you know, in movies like The Devil Wears Prada, editors are depicted as icy, intimidating and impossible to please.

I worked in female magazines for 10 years and years.

The truth?

Not all editors are like that.

0:16

Female leaders can be the heart of the team.

Today we’re taking a look at empowering and authentic leadership.

I’m your host match and this is Moments.

0:40

With me today is Sally Emery.

Sally has 25 years of experience in the magazine industry and she’s edited magazines from Dubai to Hong Kong and South Africa.

She’s a wealth of knowledge and she is one of my favourite people in the world.

0:59

When I was reading Cosmo as a teenager, she was the deputy editor and to be able to call her my friend is a dream come true.

Welcome, Sally.

1:09

Speaker 2

Ohh Matt, what a lovely intro.

Thank you, you’re one of my favourite people.

1:14

Speaker 1

Too.

So glad to hear that.

1:17

Sally’s Journey into the Magazine World

So, Sally, tell us, what drew you to magazines in the first place?

1:21

Speaker 2

Match.

I grew up in East London.

The mag sort of entering the magazine industry wasn’t even sort of something you dreamed about, It was sort of something completely out there.

So really, life actually led me towards magazines rather than than me pursuing them.

I’d always been in newspapers.

1:38

And you know what, it’s like you take different decisions in your career being in Hong Kong.

And my husband and I came back, we both worked in newspapers and we were like, we can’t work together anymore, this is not good, our relationship.

He said he’d take the newspaper path and I’d take the magazine path.

1:53

And I was really fortunate to end up at Cosmo.

1:57

Speaker 1

Amazing.

And it was such a great fit for you.

It’s like you were meant to end up in magazines.

2:03

Why Magazines (and Now Podcasts) Matter to Women

I think so.

You know what I love about magazine’s March?

It’s it’s very much what you doing here.

And I mean, as a when I was growing up as a teenager, I used to get 17 magazine from the library.

And I think the the space that magazines give you is, you know, they let us, they sort of allow us to know what our similarities are.

2:21

They open us up to conversations that we maybe be too nervous to have with people close to us or our parents.

And I think it’s that wonderful sort of source of me time and entertainment.

And I think it’s very similar to what you’re doing here, you know, and I think that magazines are definitely sort of winding down.

2:39

And then the other things that are taking their place, like podcasts.

2:42

Speaker 1

Yeah, I think in the last 10 years we’ve seen magazine circulations definitely dropping and the rise of podcasts.

2:51

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah.

And I think they both serve a very similar, you know, purpose and function.

And I think it’s just really important that we continue to have these in the media space where women can have open and honest conversations with each.

3:02

What It’s Really Like Leading Female Teams

Other.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So as a leader of mostly teams of women, what would you say that you enjoy the most about leading a team of females?

3:17

Speaker 2

And not so much just leading a team of females.

I’d say working with women really for me was just an amazing experience.

And I think that what we learn is that we have so many similarities, but also we have so many differences.

And I think that is really the amazing thing.

You know, you learn about how people are influenced differently in the way they brought up.

3:35

I remember being so shocked when I realised that a lot of people didn’t have good relationships with their mums, for example.

You know that I sort of realised.

And I think also the the wonderful thing that that magazines and working with women taught me is when you get to know people, you realise every single person has a story emerge.

3:52

And when you know that story, it makes working together as a team so much more genuine and caring and kind because you know what it is that makes that person tick, what what they’ve been through in life, et cetera.

And that applies to men and women.

And I think I was so privileged in when I was younger, working with women who were older than me.

4:11

I learned so much from them, whether it was about parenting or relationships or just conducting myself at work.

And then as I got older and in magazines, you can be old quite quickly, you know, working with younger people.

It was just so intriguing to have that bridge to a younger generation.

4:28

And in so many ways, actually, what I learned from those younger staff members was that there was this sort of, they almost helped me understand in a way, the things that my own children were going through growing up.

So that was, and they were almost like a lovely bridge for me to a younger generation.

4:46

And now things have changed.

And so, yeah, I loved working with women.

And I’m very glad you asked that question because so often people would sort of say, ohh, God, what’s it like working?

You know, it must be terrible working all with women.

And and you really where the place that that question is coming from.

It’s all of those stereotypes that people play into around women and how we are to each other.

5:06

It’s really misogynistic actually.

You know, women are amazing people.

We all got each other’s back.

And I think that.

So I really like the way that you phrased that question rather than that like, ohh, my goodness, what was it like working or with women and assumption that it has to be awful.

5:21

How Great Leaders Empower Without Diminishing

Yeah, cause I think there’s a stigma around women being very competitive, which in some cases are definitely true, but I think it definitely comes from the leader.

So you just said you appreciated everyone’s story and what they could bring to the to the table.

5:42

And I think what’s so magical about you is that you brought out the best in every single person.

Is that something that came naturally to you?

Is it something that you learned overtime?

5:57

Speaker 2

I think a bit of both match, I think definitely, you know, in, in working, I’ve worked all my life basically, you know, pretty much since I was 14 years old.

And I think what you learn is you learn about people that make you feel empowered and amazing and you learn about people that make you feel diminished.

6:14

And as as a leader of a team, you never want to make someone feel diminished.

Why would you, You know, you want them to bring their best to, to, to the office environment and to their work.

And so I definitely learned along the way.

You know, for example, my first job actually got fired from I was a waitress and I didn’t I had to make coffee and I didn’t understand how to use the coffee machine.

6:36

You know, I mean, I came from a family where we had Frisco.

You know, I didn’t exactly know how how a coffee machine worked.

That taught me two things.

First of all, it taught me as a leader that never assume people know things.

Make sure that your team understands and knows what is expected of them.

6:52

And as an employee, it made me realise that Jesus Jeepers, never be never be scared to ask a question, you know, and then moving on.

I worked, you know, with all sorts of people who really empowered me.

7:08

And it was like, I remember once when I was working on a newspaper, I made it actually a terrible error.

And when I got to work that evening, we were working night, night shift.

Then my night editor called me into a room on my own and spoke to me, not in a horrible way.

7:26

I needed to be held accountable for what the error I had made, but he did it privately, he did it courteously, and he didn’t do it in a way to make me feel diminished.

It actually I, I walked out of there feeling like he had my back.

I felt empowered.

And I also knew that he was he, he, he, he still gave me the confidence that he still had confidence in me going forward, but he needed to hold me accountable for that error that I’ve made.

7:51

So I think it really is, you know, you, you definitely learn along the way.

And often it’s just about reflecting on yourself.

And, you know, the truth is made most of us in any kind of work environment.

Yes, we have teams that we are working alongside and leading, but normally we ourselves have someone who’s leading us and we just have to think, how would we want them to treat us?

8:13

You know, it shouldn’t be any different as things sort of trickle outwards in the team.

So I think sometimes we just need to stop and actually think about the human experience.

8:24

Speaker 1

That’s so so true because if someone feels like they can be themselves and if the team morale is very high, they can be a much better version of themselves than always being scared and pussy footing around issue no?

8:39

Speaker 2

Absolutely.

You don’t want that, no.

8:41

Speaker 1

No, especially because we spent so much time at work.

Having a knot in your stomach doing it would definitely not.

The output wouldn’t.

8:50

Speaker 2

Be and you know, you can really see it.

You can see it if someone is walking into an office feeling frightened, you shouldn’t be walking into an office feeling frightened.

You should be walking into an office thinking wow, what is what’s going to happen today in not in this Ohh my goodness what’s gonna happen?

9:04

Speaker 1

Today and being proud of what you’ve done, not just when that issue goes to print or whatever industry you’re in.

That’s an easy example.

When the issue goes to print, you obviously proud, but every single day what your tasks were you should have a a matter of pride and self-confidence about exactly.

9:24

Speaker 2

The important role that you played in it and I think that really is, you know, where it comes down to sort of being a member of a team and, and, and acknowledging that every single person plays a really important role in getting to that end product.

9:37

Creating Safe, Loyal and Supportive Work Cultures

Yeah, that’s very, very true.

So you are very good at creating a culture where loyalty and high performance were definitely both of those things were were met.

Yeah.

So what’s your key philosophy around leading and and creating that safe space for?

9:58

Speaker 2

Everyone.

I think loyalty breeds loyalty.

I always like to think that I had my teams back.

And I think that when you are loyal to your team, and I’m not talking about blind loyalty, I’m talking about and you know, the incident where maybe someone comes to you with an issue around one of your team members.

10:15

I think it’s about always acknowledging the input and the criticism, finding out as much information as you can and but not taking sides.

At that point, it’s about going back and having the conversation with the team member that is possibly had a criticism against them and finding out their side of the story.

10:32

So for me, I always tried to have the front or not a front, but hopefully the people around me realised that actually to get to my team, they first needed to get through me and I was always going to try and be as protective as I could in terms of my team and listen to what they had had to say.

10:56

You know, I think that that is, is, is really important and also the, the sort of idea that making sure that everyone feels like we said already before, you know, this, this idea that we aren’t, it’s not a, it’s, we colleagues, it’s not a boss and staff members like that, your colleagues, you all working together, you all striving for the same goal.

11:17

And that’s the truth of it.

We all wanting to get to the same end point so we can help each other along the way.

That that.

That’s really the most fundamental thing for me.

11:27

Speaker 1

While Sally, that’s so true and you have this wonderful way of making everyone feel safe and when you said you protected your team, we definitely felt that.

So how did you achieve this in the business of pressures and meeting deadlines?

11:45

Speaker 2

I imagine, I think to make people feel safe you need to be fairly consistent in terms of your behaviour.

So it was about making sure that no matter, no matter what had happened at home, no matter how awful it would be in getting my children to school, whether they’d been sick, whether they’d been screaming and shouting, whether I’d had a, a fight with my husband.

12:04

I tried to always arrive at work pretty much the same person.

So it was about making sure that I greeted people when they walked in the door, when I walked in the door and, and, and just sort of being consistent.

I think it’s really, if you can be consistent for your team, they can know that when they walk up to their, your desk and ask you something that they kind of know how you’re going to respond.

12:26

And I think that’s really important.

You don’t want your team to be walking around on egg shells around you because you could maybe one day you, you know, you laugh at something, but the next day you’re furious about it, you know, So you need to be consistent.

I also think to create a sort of safe working environment, you need to really trust, trust your team.

12:47

You need to trust that what you’ve asked them to do, they’re going to do.

You’re not like micromanaging them.

You’re not nitpicking around things.

And and then another really big thing for me was about keeping perspective.

Like people do really important jobs, like they doctors and they’re on operating tables or they’re playing with millions of rands of people’s money.

13:08

Like we were creating a magazine.

And sometimes I needed to keep that in perspective, like truthfully, like where were we in the big world?

Yeah.

And I think that sometimes it just keeping perspective, the reality of like, if something hasn’t gone quite according to plan, it’s not the end of the world and we can fix it together.

13:25

So I think that kind of feeling of I and, you know, also manage, I think it’s important for us to realise that as leaders, we’ve usually been involved in employing the people that are working with us.

So you need to also trust your, you know, you were the one that decided they could do the job.

13:41

So then trust them to do the job.

And, and I think that’s also sort of safe space where you don’t want people looking over their shoulder the whole time wondering if you’re going to find fault in them and, and, and, and share positive feedback as often as possible.

I think that’s really important as well.

13:57

Speaker 1

Yeah, the positive feedback really is important because that makes people feel seen and celebrated.

Exactly.

Gives them confidence.

14:06

Speaker 2

You know, they say praise and praise in public and talk to people about other things very much in private.

14:15

The Art of Tough Conversations and Honest Feedback

And you had such a great way of you were telling me earlier about your manager that gave you critical feedback in private, but you also had such a great way of doing it which didn’t make you want to go and hide in the bathroom or cry on your way home.

14:33

Speaker 2

You know, imagine those conversations are the hardest conversations to have to, to know that you need to have a difficult conversation with the team member.

It’s it.

None of us want to be doing that.

You know, none of us want to be in a room with someone where, you know, things on.

14:49

Ohh, nice.

Basically, you know, Yeah.

So yeah, you know, conflict is is hard.

And I think first of all, always make sure it’s private.

Don’t take Lee and doing it.

You don’t want to humiliate someone.

Like why would you want to humiliate someone in them?

And I would always start with the premise of I’ve noticed this and ask someone for why is this happening?

15:13

Like, you know, I’ve noticed you, you can’t seem to be able to do XYZ.

I’ve noticed that before you used to do this, but now it’s like, what’s going, what’s happening?

Be curious about their possession because usually there really is a good explanation.

And even if it is because something terrible is happening in my personal life or, you know, my colleague who is, is, is diminishing me in private, you know, I mean, and so I think that you really need to open those sort of criticisms up for, for it to be, to be a sort of real give and take.

15:48

And I think the other thing is that you need to also make sure that they know that that you, you still, you value them like you, you wanted to be right.

Again, I’m saying you don’t want to make someone feel awful.

You don’t want to humiliate them.

And also, I think to make sure that after you’ve had those difficult conversations, the things go back to normal as quickly as possible.

16:08

But it’s not something that you’re going to harbour that you’re going to kind of keep niggling on about.

You have the conversation and then give them the benefit of the doubt that things will sort themselves out.

16:19

Speaker 1

No, because as a manager or a leader, you also kind of become this person’s, it’s almost like a mothering role when we, when we honest, because when you’re sick or when you, when you’ve got a problem or someone, you, you, the first person you go to when it’s affecting you professionally is your manager.

16:39

And then you have to have the wisdom and the knowledge to to treat it and to acknowledge it in the bigger picture, especially if it’s a sensitive thing that the whole team can’t necessarily know about it.

So it’s like a fine line, yeah, between knowing how to handle it, supporting that person, but still getting the job done.

16:59

Speaker 2

Exactly, And that’s why I say, you know, none of these things are just everything comes with kind of caveats, you know, and I think that you you to know those things about someone, but they can’t be the thing that defines them.

The thing that defines them still needs to be their role at work.

17:15

You know, if you’ve got going through maybe a divorce or something like that, that can’t be the thing that defines you at work.

What needs to define your at work needs to be your work role.

And it’s good that your manager knows and can support you.

But ultimately at work, it’s about kind of keeping all of those things on a professional sort of beautiful.

17:35

Yeah, in many.

17:36

Speaker 1

Ways show up professionally, yeah, although people support.

17:40

Speaker 2

Yes, exactly.

17:41

Choosing People Over Process

Yeah.

So can you give me an example?

You so much of A people’s person and you very much cared about everyone on the team.

Can you give me an example of where you had to choose people over process and how that worked out?

17:57

Speaker 2

You know, Marge, I do think that I did like to choose people over process most days.

But then I’m also a great believer in the process because I think that process and a system really brings out the best in people and processes and systems really are built to make people better at what they do.

18:15

Yeah.

So it’s a it’s a very fun balancing act for me.

But I think what what when things go wrong is when the process is bigger than the people and people lose the sort of management lose the reason why we have processes.

18:30

And I think the other thing is that for processes, you know, we create them, people create processes.

So the great thing is that we also can change processes.

And I think that was, I was never afraid to question a process.

18:47

And I think that does have to happen.

And especially in bigger corporations, the bigger teams get, you know, like I’m, I’m, I’m showing my age, but HR got bigger and bigger roles and the, the further I went in, in my career.

And I think there’s no harm as a team leader to sometimes question HR and to sometimes question why the process is suddenly bigger than the people, because the process should be there to help the people.

19:16

And HR and management do have the means to change process.

And sometimes that rarely needs to be questioned.

You know, rigidity around when people arrive and leave work for no particular reason, those kinds of things.

And I think we really do owe it to our team members to challenge.

19:32

Might not always be victorious, but you can challenge and, you know, manage.

I remember such a, a good example of, of when I was the person that was chosen above the process by my own manager.

And it was when my father went into hospital for a routine operation and got terribly ill and essentially died.

19:52

And she was amazing in those two weeks that he was in ICU.

She trusted that I was going to get my job done.

She trusted that I could lead my team.

This is before the days of remote, you know, this is when everyone was sort of in an office.

And to this day I appreciate.

20:08

It so much, it was such a gift she gave me, my family and my father in those last two weeks of his life.

But what I do have to say as a team leader, when process comes above people, it’s extremely hard.

And sometimes you have to do it.

20:24

You know, when there’s downsizing, when there’s retrenchment.

And to have those hard conversations where you have to put that person the story that you know, the information that you have around that person, you know their circumstances, you know what losing their job is going to mean to them.

20:40

And to sit with someone and have those conversations, it’s very hard.

I found it so hard.

And I think and, and, and, and, and it’s something most managers will have to do at some point in their life.

Have those things where you actually don’t have a choice and the process is bigger than the person.

20:55

And I think just to do that with as much kindness as possible.

And I it’s, it’s hard.

I don’t know that I always did it right, but I tried, you know, But it’s a it’s a very difficult thing when process overrides people.

21:08

Speaker 1

Yeah, it’s so true what you’re saying, because I think a lot of leaders depend a lot on the process and the people get lost as collateral damage done down the way and it’s about having the confidence to actually question the.

21:23

Speaker 2

Process.

A process is nothing with our people.

21:27

Approachable Leadership and Bottom-Up Wisdom

So women leaders are depicted in movies like that.

They’ve always brought, as I mentioned in my intro or Ugly Betty, as unapproachable.

But you’ve always been super approachable and you’ve led from the bottom up.

Was this a conscious decision?

21:43

Speaker 2

Um, mate, I’m quite a curious person, you know, and I think I also love the sort of process of knowing what everyone does.

And I think it’s really important actually on a team that we all have.

Look, you shouldn’t be, shouldn’t necessarily have to be able to do the person’s job here, but you should have an understanding of it.

22:01

And I think that’s also when a team works really well is when everyone has an understanding of what’s going on.

So for me, I actually loved being involved.

I loved knowing what people did and I love being able, the fact that I could step in and help not not as well as they could do a job, but I could certainly step in and kind of do something to help them along the way.

22:21

And I think that, you know, there really is no better feeling than when you’ve got a crisis or something and everyone, you know, that feeling in a team where everyone mucks in together.

Yeah.

And you know, you’ve got, even if it’s the person that’s doing the pizza round to see you through, you know, it’s, it’s like where everyone is just saying what can I do?

22:41

And I’ve never been a great one for like it’s not in my job description.

You know, that’s what I remember.

22:46

Speaker 1

You actually scheduling social media when I had a crisis.

22:50

Speaker 2

Or something.

Exactly.

You know, and so I don’t, I never sort of felt the boundaries of my job.

Who would want that?

I mean, it’s so nice to be flexible and that sense of achievement and that sense of when you’ve done something as a team together.

23:06

I don’t think any.

Not much beats it in the workplace actually.

23:10

Speaker 1

I think that’s the ultimate goal is to that sense of achievement, and we did it.

23:15

Speaker 2

We did it, yeah.

It really is just fantastic, you know, And I think also the thing, and I’m not sure if it’s sort of plays exactly into this, was I think that’s kind of sensitive if ever there was praise given.

Like when you’ve done that thing and you get praise to really make sure that your team hears that praise too, because often leaders get the praise.

23:36

But to really make sure that the praise gets passed on.

And at the same time, and you’re receiving the praise, make sure that the people giving it to you realise what went into getting to that point.

So that they know while everyone that you know, really mucked together and so and so stepped in and did this for that person.

23:55

And you know, really make sure that when you receive praise, that certain things get fed back up and, and make sure that your team knows that that that you know, what they did was was noticed.

24:08

Speaker 1

Yeah, because if you make people feel celebrated, that is just, there’s no amount of rewards or money that could buy that kind of loyalty and morality.

24:21

Speaker 2

Yeah.

24:22

Motherhood as a Leadership Masterclass

So Sally, tell me, how did motherhood shape your leadership style?

24:28

Speaker 2

It’s interesting when manage, I’m not always sure that motherhood necessarily makes you a better leader.

I know personally it made me much better at time management as a, as a, as a, as a staff, as a team member think that, you know, often I think I sometimes why is it, why a question about whether it improves your, your leadership style is because I think sometimes when you’re a mother, you’re like, Jeepers, you know, I’ve managed to do this and I managed to do this and this and this.

24:58

And then someone comes to you and you’re like, well, you should be able to do it too.

So I’m not sure that that being a mother necessarily always makes you a better leader.

But I do think that it taught me a lot about, you know, again, people have all sorts of things going on in their labs which we don’t necessarily know about.

25:18

And to just be gentle and kind and and listen.

Ask questions and listen.

25:23

Speaker 1

Yeah, So what you just said about having patience with other people, You knew me before I was a mother and after.

And I, I, I’ve had this thing in my head off apologising to everyone I know for the person I was.

25:41

I’m going to use my dog as an example for Alfie.

So whenever people were talking about their babies, I would chip, you know, about something about Wolfie.

And I did this often and consistently.

I do you remember this?

And I’m taking this moment to apologise.

25:59

Speaker 2

We love Alfie.

I remember Balfe’s Christmas shoot.

26:03

Speaker 1

And after I became a mother, now people will talk about their animals, they pets when I’m talking about like a mother or a child issue with parenting issue.

And I get so freaking annoyed.

So everyone, I’m sorry.

26:19

I know it’s not the same now.

Yeah.

So that patients with people, although you have so much more to do or more on your plate, being a mother and just not wishing that down onto people who are not necessarily in the same shoes.

26:36

Speaker 2

As you on, yeah.

26:37

Resilience and Keeping Perspective in the Chaos

So Sally, I think about you moving continents with young children living abroad, moving back with them as tweens with your husband still in Dubai, launching a magazine, working in a cut throat industry and being in the same age where you were when you did all these things.

27:02

I think where that your drive come from.

How did you manage all that?

Because just thinking about it makes me feel like I need a nap.

27:11

Speaker 2

I’m a very well, you know, when you’re in something mad, I’m going to, I can show you right now that you would be able to do it.

You know, I’m a very solutions oriented person.

So I and I also, I, I was raised by two amazing people and they were very, nothing ever seemed to throw them.

27:33

It didn’t matter what happened.

They were always, ohh, what can, how are we going to work around this?

And I think that the sort of not focusing on the problem, why the problem happened, unpicking it, who’s to blame, just thinking, okay, now are we going to fix it?

You know, and I think that’s really something that drove me forward.

27:50

My parents, I mean this, it’s a bit of a family joke, but you know, my parents, I didn’t go to a fancy school.

My mum simply chose the school because it was closer to us and we could walk to it so we could be independent and sort of do our own thing.

But there’s our school motto at this funny little school that I went to was Tentando Super Rabbis, which is by endeavour you succeed, which simplified even more extra try again, you know, and we joke about it still, but really that is what it boils down to, you know, try once, try a second, try and try 1/3 time.

28:20

And then at some point you might need to admit defeat.

But I think just this kind of thing about there’s gotta be a way that we can work around this, you know, And again, I say keeping things in perspective, like what are you doing and what is its really impact in the world around you so that you don’t blow things out of perspective.

28:39

Like, is it really what it what is?

So if something goes wrong, what are the consequences truthfully, as as opposed to just the catastrophe that happens in your head?

You know, sometimes you need to stop and think really like what is what is the worst that can happen if something goes wrong, kind of keeping it all.

28:55

Speaker 1

Real.

Yeah.

That’s such a fresh reality check.

Because if something goes wrong, we, we always feel like it’s the end of the world.

Absolutely.

Never really.

29:04

Speaker 2

Is that catastrophe that happens in your chest and your head is just like awful, you know?

But sometimes it is just about getting a pen and paper and actually thinking, okay, if X happens, what is the worst outcome?

It’s often not as bad as we think.

29:19

Speaker 1

That’s great.

29:21

Speaker 2

Thank.

29:21

Speaker 1

Goodness.

So what’s your message to someone listening today who wants to be a better leader, who’s in a leadership role and feeling overwhelmed and not knowing what to do?

29:31

Advice for Overwhelmed Leaders and Managers

What what can she do to better show up for her team?

29:35

Speaker 2

I think she can start with herself.

You know, I think sometimes we need to acknowledge the goodness about ourselves.

Have more confidence in yourself.

Like, well, I earned my position.

I mean, we all have moments of doubt and, you know, imposter syndrome.

But I acknowledge I own this position.

29:52

Feel confident in your position because often when you feel not confident, when you’re feeling a little bit sort of insecure, we can reflect that onto our team members and it doesn’t bring out the best in us.

30:08

So you know, I think it really is again about this sort of starting with yourself and leading with confidence, doing it until don’t go looking for problems.

I think that that is also another big mistake that is very easy to make in leaders in leadership roles.

30:24

You might hear things that are supposedly happening on your team and I rarely used to make a point of until I was told someone came to me directly this is happening.

I tried not to wade into things because there is so much that one day can be a drama and truthfully the next day it’s blown over.

30:43

So until A-Team member had actually come to me and said this is a problem, then you have and also went on from that.

If someone does come to you with a problem, you have to address it and you have to address it quickly and you have to look like you are trying to help that problem be solved.

30:59

You have to hear them and they need to know that you’re hearing them.

But yeah, as I said, don’t go looking for problems.

I think that can often, you know, we go home and we, we notice, we’re so sure that this person was saying, you know, you kind of all this self doubt creeps in and you know, don’t weigh it in until you need to weigh in.

31:19

Mentorship, Gen Z, and Always Staying Curious

That’s great, Sally.

So what do you think the younger generations actually expect from their leaders today?

There’s such a big, because people are not working from work all the time.

I think they’re, they’re younger people.

31:36

There’s a loss of mentorship and a loss of getting to know the people for who they really are.

So how can leaders show up for younger, younger generations today?

31:49

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think that the the, the role that you that you spoke speak about mentorship, I think that’s really important.

So I think make sure that your younger team members have the tools that they need, make sure that they are in positions that work for them.

32:04

I think, you know, there can be a tendency now to sort of push people higher and quicker and faster.

We want more and more from them.

So I think really give people a solid grounding.

But I think the amazing thing that we have to, we, we need to acknowledge that we can also learn a lot from the younger generation.

32:21

And, you know, I think a lot of sort of the older generation, we have this very Calvinistic kind of work ethic.

And it’s not always a good thing.

And I think that there’s really a lot that we can learn from sort of Gen.

Z and we can learn about their approach to work.

32:38

We can learn about, we need to be careful not to be the dinosaurs that just us because this is the way that we’ve always done it.

This is the way that we will continue to do it.

Yes, sometimes maybe you will need to continue to do it, but be open to new ideas.

The younger generation has so much more access to tools and an ease with tools that we we, you know, for someone like me, it can be very difficult to comprehend even.

33:02

And I think listening, being open to change, being open to seeing what are the tools out there that can actually make our processes easier, more efficient.

So I think it’s really a two way stream.

So make sure that they have all the things that they need to be able to do there, the information they need, the support that they need, but then also make sure that you are open to actually being able to take things on board and then.

33:24

Speaker 1

That’s amazing, Sally, for for a leader like you to say that we can learn from younger people, that just shows that that amplifies exactly what I’ve been saying about you all through this conversation.

33:38

Speaker 2

Thank you much.

33:39

Rapid Fire: Reflections on Motherhood & Legacy

So we’re done with the formal part of our conversation and now we’re doing the final five, which are 5 questions every guest on moments answer.

It’s nothing to worry about because it’s all about who you are as a mother.

33:56

The first one is which part of your human experience or HX was most affected by becoming a mom.

34:06

Speaker 2

HX is a big one badge.

It really is.

I think.

You know, the thing that affected me the most after I had my children was I remember sort of driving around and just looking at all these other people in the street and thinking, my goodness, it took so much for that person to still be alive today.

34:25

You know, so much care and effort has gone into this person and, and kind of gave me a whole different perspective on humanity that someone had to really care for this person who maybe I don’t particularly like strangers, You know, just how much love and care there is for humans to keep existing in the way that we have.

34:46

You know, that just blew my mind, actually.

34:49

Speaker 1

I also remember thinking the same thing, like horrible people or people you don’t like.

Like Donald Trump also was a baby’s mother.

Hell, do you know?

34:59

Speaker 2

Somebody had to feed them and bath them and like ohh and wake up at night for them.

You know, it’s a hot.

We know what it takes, you know, about three years.

You’re like just nurturing and nurturing and nurturing.

It takes a lot to grow new, to grow human.

35:13

Speaker 1

Yeah.

So what are you most grateful for on your mom journey?

35:18

Speaker 2

I mean, I could say at look, I I it’s hard to give a non corny answer.

Like I’m so grateful for all the things that my kids add to my life.

It just makes me so happy and full.

But I think actually when I’m really grateful for is having a partner that I could raise these children with and share this amazing experience with.

35:40

And also now that my children are older, you know, my husband and I lived apart for a while because he was working overseas and I was here.

And sometimes that almost made parenting feel easier because I could make decisions with aunt and input and because it’s hard, you know, when someone else has got an opinion and you’ve got an opinion and they’re not always the same, they’ll be about it.

36:01

But I’m really grateful now that I see my children as grow.

They’re in their early mid 20s now.

And I’m so grateful for the elements that my partner added to their lives that I could never have given to them.

So that for me is really fantastic.

36:17

I, I see, I see him with different eyes now and I see the value that he is also brought to it.

It, it sounds like I didn’t see the value, but I did always know that he was adding something.

But I just see it now in a totally different light.

And I love that he’s turned them into fuller people than I ever could have done on my own.

36:36

And to share their journey because truthfully, no one else wants to talk about your kids in the same way that you know.

So to have someone sharing that with you as I feel, I feel very grateful that I had that and that I chose the person I did to do it with.

36:50

Speaker 1

That’s very special.

So looking back, what would you have done differently?

36:55

Speaker 2

So this one is tricky and I think it’s because I have to keep reminding myself because when I often think I wish I’d done this, I’ve done that instead.

And then I remember, I have to stop and remind myself that actually we make those decisions in the moment that we make them in surrounded with all the information that we had at that time, What your financial situation was like, what your ohh, this work situation is like, what your relationship with your child was like, you know, so I like to try and have trust and faith in that person that made that decision and be kind to her because I think she was doing the best that she could.

37:36

And, and I think that’s really important.

And I have to remind myself about that a lot, not just in parenting, but in life in general that we make decisions.

We we usually with our best interest at heart with, with all the information we have.

37:52

Then, you know, it’s different to look back and have all this sort of additional information that we have now.

But so I try not to go there too much.

38:00

Speaker 1

That’s amazing.

Your answer really touched my heart because it’s very easy to go back and say, ohh, you should have done this differently.

But that’s hard.

The the human factor always has to be accounted for exactly in the moment.

38:17

So the so your kids are almost grown up or grown young, young adults.

What are what are you telling them about having kids?

38:27

Speaker 2

I’m telling them I actually just had such a a wonderful experience visiting my daughter, who’s now living in a foreign country and spending time with her could have some really open discussions around parenting.

And I think that the message that that we shared with her and that the conversations we had were a lot of them were around, we were learning at the same time, like we hadn’t done this before either, you know what I mean?

38:50

So we were like really having to kind of learn on the fly as well.

Yeah.

And, and so, yeah.

And that parenting will it’s, it’s the most, it’s I think it’s the only opportunity that you’re given to experience unconditional, not experience to give unconditional love.

39:14

Yeah.

And I think you experience unconditional love from your own parents and hopefully, yeah.

And that the biggest gift you can give your children is to that unconditional love, you know, and that that really is the most wonderful thing about parenting.

39:29

And just, yeah.

But that you’re learning that, that we were learning as well on the way.

So we didn’t miss, you know, there’s not a right.

We didn’t.

We didn’t know that there was necessarily a right in a wrong way.

39:38

Speaker 1

To yeah, that’s so interesting because growing up you think your parents are the most enlightened people.

They are just the alpha and Omega and they know everything.

39:48

Speaker 2

And I think that’s also nice now, you know, when your kids get older and, you know, they’re more interested in you as a human.

So like you sort of sharing stories about yourself and growing up and there’s a different interest.

And I think they can also now see, wow, you know, you actually did this or as their experience grows.

40:08

It opens them up to being more interested in your experience.

So I’m really pleased that I’m, you know, I, I think of people who lose their parents when they’re younger and they never get to that point in their relationship with their children.

So I’m very, very grateful that I that I’m still around to have this relationship with them.

40:27

Speaker 1

They’re so lucky to have you.

40:29

Speaker 2

Thanks.

40:30

Speaker 1

So, Sally, what is your North Star when you make parenting decisions?

40:36

Speaker 2

People have been asked this before and, and people sometimes that have seen a bit sort of, what does that actually mean?

I like to make decisions where I never want my children to feel shame.

I don’t know, it’s a funny thing to say, but like, I want them to, I need them.

40:52

So I suppose that does boil down to that.

Again, this loyalty for me is a big thing.

I want my children to know that I’ll always have it back and that love is really always going to be there.

And when I say loyalty, it’s not and saying that they can never do something wrong, but that I will always be there to pick things up and help them along the way and hopefully guide them.

41:14

But really, when I was making decisions as a parent and they crop up frequently, especially when your children are teenagers and their boyfriends and girlfriends and all sorts of decisions involved, and never wanted them to feel shame.

Because I think as soon as someone feels shamed, then they feel like they have to hide things from you.

41:30

And I always wanted my kids to feel like there was this element of trust that they could always come to me with things that I was never going to be shocked, you know?

And and I think that for me, I don’t know why I’ve chosen that word shame.

But I think, yeah, I, I don’t, I don’t want, I don’t ever want my children to feel ashamed.

41:50

Speaker 1

That’s very valuable for someone who’s not in the teenage phase yet.

41:56

Speaker 2

You’ve got, you’ve got a lot to look forward to that and it’s one, it’s the most wonderful.

I loved parenting teenagers.

It’s it’s, it’s, it’s very rewarding.

42:05

Speaker 1

Okay.

42:06

Speaker 2

Promise you.

42:08

Final Thoughts and Episode Wrap-Up

I can’t wait.

So Sally, thanks so much for joining me today.

Your perspective on life, parenting, leadership, and everything else is just so refreshing and I could chat to you about this all day.

42:24

And I really appreciate you coming and sharing your wisdom with all of the listeners.

42:29

Speaker 2

Thank you, Major.

So flattered that you asked me and I really appreciate it.

And being giving this opportunity to to chat to you is a real privilege.

Thank you.

42:37

Speaker 1

Thanks.

So whether you’re leading A-Team or raising a family, remember leadership does not necessarily come from a title.

It’s all about lifting people up, being authentic, and staying true to who you really are.

42:53

Until next time, bye.

This episode of Moments is brought to you by Babies-R-Us and Toys-R-Us, your Village.

43:02

Bonus Clips: Real Parenting Advice from Our Community

Through every messy, magical step of parenting, from first kicks to toddler chaos, we’re here with love, guidance, and all the essentials we need to thrive.

Because every moment matters.