Welcome to Moments.

This is the podcast where working moms get honest conversations, expert advice, and a community that’s here to help you thrive not just at home, but at work too.

My conversation with Mandy is an eye opener to moms who want it all and maybe even had it all until they had kids but now feel like they were set up to fail.

0:26

We unpacked A controversial topic about the realities of ambition and career growth for moms, and Mandy’s honesty and insight is invaluable to any mom wondering if she’s worked hard on a career that’s just not sustainable.

0:42

Share this episode with a friend and colleagues going through the same terminations, or even someone contemplating having kids at all.

1:04

On this episode, we get to learn from a woman who shows up with courage every single day.

Mandy Wiener has spent her career digging for the truth, giving whistleblowers a voice, and telling the stories that matter.

She’s a journalist and author and a force for accountability.

1:22

She’s the perfect mom to help us uncover the truth about ambition and being a working mum.

Welcome, Mandy.

1:30

Speaker 2

Thanks mate, thanks so much for for having me.

This is such an important conversation. 1 I don’t get to have often enough.

1:38

Speaker 1

Yes, absolutely.

I feel like being a working mum, we get thrown in the deep end and then as young women and then we are super ambitious and we build our careers and then we have our babies and we’re like, ohh, my gosh, how is this sustainable?

1:55

How are we going to, you know, make this work in a world that has all these corporate rules and expectations And, you know, the the rules were never set up with moms in mind.

So I love having these conversations and just telling the truth about what it really means to be a woman in the workforce in today’s days.

2:20

So you are known for always seeking the truth and justice.

Where did this passion of yours start?

2:30

Speaker 2

I think as a child really, and it really speaks to the kind of environment that my parents cultivated for me.

I grew up in a house where there was always news happening.

We were always watching the news, listening to the news, reading the news.

2:45

It was something that I was fascinated by.

We were having those kinds of patients in in our house.

So I think that a lot of it came from the environment that I was brought up in.

I just decided that I wanted to be a journalist.

I always wanted to be be a journalist.

3:02

I think it’s, you know, and even in my work with whistleblowers, I’ve realised that it’s something that’s inherent, you know, if you, if you pursue justice, if you are seeking out the truth, it, it can be quite binary, you know, like it’s black or white and either something’s right or, or wrong.

3:19

And I see that in, in whistleblowers.

It’s something that journalists have too, where we feel that we need to get to the bottom of of what’s really happening.

3:29

Speaker 1

So in global trends, we’re seeing negative marriage and birth rates.

Like women are just saying we are not setting ourselves up for this juggle that we just had a little conversation about when you logged in.

3:45

It’s super hard.

Women want to build their careers.

So was that ever something you consider before having kids, like area versus family?

3:56

Balancing Career and Family

Ohh yeah.

3:57

Speaker 2

Ohh yeah definitely.

This was the great debate.

So my my story is that I built my career very young.

So I started working in radio in the second year of my journalism degree.

I worked extremely hard, very, very early in my career.

4:15

So by the time I was 30, I had published my first book, I had developed my brand, people knew who I was, and I was quite established and I was very fortunate.

But it meant that I had to make big sacrifices in in my youth, I didn’t get to travel as much or party as much or necessarily do the things I wanted to do because I was working so hard.

4:39

But what that meant was that when I had children in my early 30s, I could afford myself the time to, to step away and focus on, on having kids.

And I had to adapt my, my career.

4:56

But it was something I really thought about, you know, because, and this is quite a controversial view.

And it’s, it’s, it’s probably not in line with my feminist beliefs that I also think that it’s very hard for a woman to be a field reporter while having kids.

If you are a field reporter, you, you don’t own your clock.

5:14

You are working late hours, early mornings.

You have to stay on the story indefinitely and you just don’t have flexibility.

And I think it’s incredibly difficult to to do that.

So I had to adapt my career and that’s the conversation I had with a lot of young reporters today who are thinking about having kids, and I’m very honest about it.

5:36

Speaker 1

I think that’s so important is the honesty, and that’s definitely something I want us to discuss because I feel like there were never enough warnings for me.

Like when I became a mom, I obviously had some idea of how it was going to be like, but it was overwhelmingly challenging for me.

5:58

Like I also, I worked in town, I was in women’s magazines, I was commuting and being away from home 11 hours a day.

It’s not as hardcore as being a field journalist, but it didn’t fit my life anymore.

6:15

So the honesty for me is so, so important.

So one question I did want to ask you about journalists being a journalist and a mom is do you think the soft skills and negotiation and time management and all the other things of being a parent, do you think that actually made you a better journalist to?

6:34

The Impact of Motherhood on Career

Have.

And that’s interesting.

So I do think that I developed a degree of compassion that didn’t have before.

So as as a field reporter or as a news reporter, I was very hard, very hard.

And you have to be, you know, I did a series of, of stories about children who died, who, who were murdered in very, very brutal ways and abused in terrible ways.

6:56

And I had to develop quite a strong defence against any kind of emotional attachment to that.

I won the CNN African Journalist of the Year award for children dying for a child dying.

And you know, that was always something it was, it was a story about Kin Sani Mitilini.

7:14

She was a 2 year old girl who was shot while strapped to her mother’s back.

And I’ll never forget that story.

And I do think that when I had kids completely changed me it completely.

You know, people say that it’s like such a, a, an over used phrase, but it made me a lot more compassionate.

7:33

It made me a lot more empathetic.

I had to change the way that our, our reported and the kind of risks that I took and I lost my appetite for risk entirely, which was my brand.

It was my entire brand that I had to, to, you know, revisit and, and adapt and rebrand myself in a way.

7:49

So I when you talk about the soft skills, the negotiating, I mean nothing compares to negotiating with, with a kid.

Nothing, you know, So give me a politician or criminal any day.

It’s easier than parenting.

Parenting is the hardest thing I do hardest thing.

8:05

It affects me in a different way to, you know, I can interview the president and I’ll be fine.

But you give me a crisis about my child and it sends me over the edge.

8:14

Speaker 1

Absolutely.

I feel like in a way, being a parent almost prepares you for difficult situations like the the fear of public humiliation or the stress of certain, you know, high tension situations.

8:32

I’m definitely much better with that because I am a mom and that kind of prepared me for the real life situations I find myself in sometimes.

One of my previous guests said having kids is a right to passage and that you understand the world in a completely different way.

8:52

And that’s exactly what you just said, that you changed your perspective and it gave you so much more compassion.

So you just spoke about criminals and dirty politicians and your career has not always been very family friendly or even safe.

9:11

Navigating Professional Jealousy and Sacrifices

The impact it had on your career to shift gears or to shift your direction.

How do you how do you feel about that now?

Like looking back on 15 years ago or in your early 30s or late 20s when you were this hardcore investigative journalist, which you still are, but the different direction.

9:33

Is that something you appreciate now?

9:37

Speaker 2

Yes and no, I think there’s a little bit of, of resentment because like I’m so, so just for a bit of a bit of background, like I made my name by interviewing gangsters and writing about the, the underworld.

9:52

And I’ll never forget, I wrote a book called Ministry of Crime that was published in in 2017.

So my daughter was a year old and my son was three years old when this book came out.

And this was delving deep into the Nexus between organised crime, the police, business, politicians I’d interviewed, relevant creature in the Fizz Modec and Mark Luffman and all of these generals.

10:19

And it was was full on right.

It was, it was a real kind of expose of the criminal underworld.

And the book came out and I was walking, I took, I taken my daughter for a walk in in her pram around the area we were living in.

10:34

And I had this moment where I was, what are you doing?

Like this is insane.

Like I had a full on panic about the risk that I had taken.

At no point was I ever a target really.

Um, you know, no one had ever made a direct threat to me or had threatened my children in anyway.

10:54

But I, I, I took a lot of management of these personalities and a lot of energy and a lot of investment in relationships with them.

And I just thought to myself, I can’t do this anymore.

It’s, it’s not a risk that I’m willing to take.

So I, I still write about and I still talk about criminals and politicians.

11:14

I focused tell her to book about whistleblowers.

I’ve just written a book about the GNU, the back story to, to the Gu, which is more about politicians.

But I’m not willing to write a book about the Midland enquiry.

I’m not willing to write a book about the police corruption that is happening currently because I feel like that is a risk that that I’m not willing to take because of my children.

11:37

And I do think that if I didn’t have kids, I would be doing that right now.

So it is a, in a way, a sacrifice that I’ve had to make.

But it’s a conscious decision that I’ve taken and it’s a pay off.

You know, I’m something I’m willing to do.

11:53

And when I see my colleagues doing it, there’s a little bit of like, ohh, you know, there’s professional jealousy.

But then, you know, I’ve also got things that that they don’t have, which I’m very grateful for.

12:06

Speaker 1

It’s always like weighing up the pros to the cons.

And I I’m so glad that you’re so honest about this, that you say that you’ve got resentment and professional jealousy because I think.

12:17

Speaker 2

We all do.

12:18

Speaker 1

Experience those emotions to a certain extent when our colleagues do stuff that we just practically cannot, um, get to do anymore.

So you said earlier that your feministic side would is not, it was not aligned to that.

12:38

Honest Conversations About Ambition and Motherhood

So I wanna also say something controversial or ask something controversial that the feminists might come at me for.

But globally, we see so many women leaving the workforce.

12:54

I think I saw a stat the other day that said half a million women in the United States left the workforce this year alone.

So.

13:04

Speaker 2

Should.

13:05

Speaker 1

We have more honest conversations with young women who plan to have families one day, about ambition, about the realistic expectations of motherhood and family.

And like we grow up with this message of you can be absolutely anything you want.

13:26

But then you get to your mid to late 30s and you realise, ohh, my gosh, I actually cannot do this anymore.

Moms are burnt out.

They have so much mom guilt that they actually cannot cope anymore.

So we do want to tell our daughters that there can be absolutely anything at all.

13:45

But what, realistically, should the message out there be?

13:51

Speaker 2

I feel very strongly about this match.

I’m I’m all for the honest conversations and I try and have them as much as possible.

I speak on public platforms about this, I speak to my colleagues about it.

I mentor a lot of young women and, and this is an issue that that comes up.

14:07

We don’t have enough honest conversations.

And I’m conflicted in a way because I feel like, hey, they are not men sitting on a podcast talking about fatherhood like this, particularly in South Africa.

And they’re frustrates me.

It’s like, why are we having this conversation in the 1st place?

14:23

Because none of my male colleagues are asked these questions.

So that does piss me off actually, because, you know, I, I see my male colleagues going ahead and doing the things that they do and there’s, there’s no consideration for, for this.

But I think it’s a conversation we, we have to have.

14:40

And I say to my colleagues all the time, do not have children.

If you want to pursue your career, don’t have kids.

I’m honest about it because I don’t think people prepare you for, for what it involves and nobody truly understands.

14:56

And I don’t think you should have kids unless you absolutely want to and are invested in it.

And I feel like people don’t don’t realise what, what it involves having having kids.

And again, you know, people may not agree with me and that’s that’s fine.

15:11

That’s my view.

And that’s the advice I give to them is that they really need to sit down and have a hard think.

15:17

The Reality of Having It All

They must have kids because society expects them or their culture expects them to to have kids.

They really need to think about it.

So my two guiding principles on this, you know, the firstly, I, I read lean in when I was about to have kids and I was like, ohh, you know, I can do this.

15:38

You’ve gotta lean in, you’ve gotta, you know, you know, I can, I’m very fortunate that I have an amazing husband who’s so hands on.

And I was like, ohh, I can do this.

I wrote a book about Oscar Pistorius and the trial when my son was one week old, um.

15:55

Speaker 1

I went to.

15:57

Speaker 2

I went to the gynecologist and he gave me the due date of my first child and it was the same week that the trial was starting.

And I said to him, is there anything we can do about this because our career focused.

And I spent that book came out nine months after my first child was born.

16:16

So I wrote an entire book with Barry Bateman about the Oscar Pistorius trial.

Was published internationally with a newborn baby and.

16:26

Speaker 1

That’s exceptional, Mandy.

16:28

Speaker 2

No, it’s insane.

It’s, it’s insane.

It’s like I managed to do it, but I was literally, there were moments where my publisher was holding my child and I was writing a book and I was watching the trial while, you know, feeding my child.

16:47

It was just what I did.

And then I read an article by Anne Marie Slaughter in the Atlantic and it is the best piece of writing I have ever read.

I’ll share the link list with you and with people that are watching and listening because for me it is the stand out piece on on on juggling and walking the tightrope of of being a parent and and having a career.

17:13

And the argument that she made was a counter to, to lean in, which essentially said you cannot have it all all the time.

And if you look at the, the stats and the research that she used to, to accompany it.

17:28

And I think it also gave me permission to not put so much pressure on myself.

It gave me permission to be like, okay, I don’t have to work as hard as I did for this period.

And, and for the first three or four years of having children, I actually freelanced.

17:45

I stopped working as a reporter.

I, I wrote books.

So I was at home a lot more with my kids.

I was much more available.

I wasn’t working as a, the full day.

Um, and my career is OK for it.

You know, it’s absolutely fine for it.

Now.

Once my kids were a bit older and they were in school, I went back to doing a radio show everyday, which allowed me flexibility.

18:09

And I now work in, I have various different roles that I do, but I’m able to balance it in a way that gives me the flexibility and it’s a privilege.

It’s a real privilege to to have that kind of flexibility.

But yeah, it’s we need to have those honest conversations.

18:27

Practical Advice for Working Moms

And the the truth is you can adjust your career and always, as you said, when your kids go to school or when they are a bit more independent, you can always return.

There’s a fascinating stat in the Recruit My Mom 2025 report where they say 43% of South African women leave their workforce, but 95% of women re enter.

18:54

So we do take career breaks and we do, um, not just the brakes, but also different directions.

Like we not necessarily enter into the same career.

Like some women start their own businesses or they choose a different career that more aligns with having a family.

19:16

So you said you mentor young women.

Do you think we should have more honest conversations like these on school level and university level, where these young women are preparing for their careers or choosing their careers?

19:34

Where does this conversation actually start?

19:38

Speaker 2

I think it’s with women and men.

I think that if we’re gonna have the women, we need to have it with men as well.

And alright, but the you know the mentality.

19:50

Speaker 1

Because I I.

19:52

Speaker 2

There are plenty of women who you can have it all and can do it, do it, do it both.

But then you need to have a partner who is on board, who is invested.

I work.

I mean, I have the most chaotic schedule at the moment.

20:11

I’ve just released a book, TV series to a daily radio show, speak at conferences on a weekly basis, I do corporate media training, a diary is packed.

And the only reason I can do that is because my husband is available and he has flexibility in his job as well and he has a corporate career.

20:29

But it’s also because I have a village around me.

So please don’t misunderstand what I’m saying.

I’m not saying that women can’t have it all.

You absolutely can at different stages of your life.

And I felt like I couldn’t have it all when my kids were smaller, but I feel like now that there are, but older I, I do have it all.

20:47

And it takes a real juggle and it takes my, my husband being on board and it takes an amazing team around me.

But it is possible to, to have it all, just not all the time.

And, and, and I think that’s the same for men and women.

21:04

So I think you need to have the conversation with, with men too.

They need to know that they need to support their their, their wives.

You know, it’s and, and obviously you, you require that sort of Commission.

21:20

It’s a, it’s a partnership, it’s a, it’s a team.

And I think that that’s it’s important to have those conversations with with all young people.

21:30

The Importance of Support Systems

Yeah, I agree, very good advice.

And do you think HR or other corporate mentorship programs, do you think that’s actually, I think there’s a big gap there for supporting working moms and actually giving them the resources to thrive professionally and at home?

21:52

Do you agree?

21:53

Speaker 2

Yeah, look, I think things are changing.

I think they’re people are much more way and corporates are much more aware.

I think we’re starting to to really see that shift and I think it needs to be a societal shift as well in how we think, how society expects us to to behave.

22:10

So I think that it’s a it’s a border thing.

I think we are starting to see those those changes and I think we need to just embrace them.

22:20

Speaker 1

So if there’s a mom listening today who feels like her life just isn’t sustainable and she needs to make a love it or just something needs to change, what are some practical advice that you can give her about having it all or not having it all right now?

22:42

Speaker 2

So my, my best friend actually gave me the the best advice on this.

We spend our lives juggling.

We, we are constantly juggling.

And you need to work out which of the balls are glass and which of the balls bounce.

Because if you know which balls are going to bounce, you can drop those balls and it’s not the end of the world.

23:02

And if you know which balls are, are, are are glass, you, you have to prioritise those.

So when you, when you’re doing the juggle, that’s what you need to, to constantly think about.

It’s also about surrounding yourself with, with the village and being willing to ask for help.

I find lots of mums aren’t willing to, to ask for help.

23:19

And it’s just not how we roll.

We have to be able to ask for help and offer help.

And I’m very fortunate.

And again, you know, we live in a country where there is the highest genie coefficient in, in the world, where there is this diversity and the stark contrast between the haves and the have nots.

23:40

And I come from a very privileged lived experience, which lots of people do not have.

And I’m very fortunate that I, I have people that help me with, with my children.

And, and that’s because I’m, I’m working so hard.

I have a mother-in-law who’s very involved.

23:57

I’ve got a husband who’s very hands on.

Not everybody has that, but I think that if you are fortunate enough and privileged enough to to have that, I think it’s something you need to think about is who are you surrounding yourself with?

Do you have a village that that you could rely on?

24:13

Do you have friends?

Mum, friends are the best, like just the best thing ever.

They are such a blessing.

So be able to be able to pick up the phone and say hey, can you take my kids or ohh, I’m not going to get there.

Can you give them a lift?

24:26

Final Reflections on Parenting and Career

That is the best thing ever and don’t be afraid to to ask for that and help.

24:32

Speaker 1

Yeah, I completely agree.

So, Mandy, I am.

So I’m so excited about everything you’ve shared with me today.

And there are five questions I ask every single guest on Moments.

We call it the final five.

24:49

The first one is which part of your human experience was changed the most by becoming a mom.

24:57

Speaker 2

Ohh, I had to embrace the pink world.

So I wrote this whole column when I was about to have kids that said blue is for girls and pink is for boys where I was challenging gender stereotypes.

25:12

Everyone was like ohh please, whatever ohh did.

Did the universe teach me a lesson in such a big way?

I’ve landed up with the girliest girl and the the the most boy boy ever and I’ve had to embrace it.

25:28

I’ve got a daughter who loves makeup and fashion and dancing and that was never part of my personality.

So I think that was my lived experience that had to had to really adapt.

25:41

Speaker 1

That’s so interesting.

I also have a boy and a girl and both also very girly, very boyish.

And I grew up in a household with, we were three sisters.

So I’ve had to embrace this whole boy thing like dinosaurs and pirates and cricket and rugby now that he’s older.

26:01

And it’s been quite, quite interesting, but so much fun.

So looking back, what would you have done differently?

26:12

Speaker 2

Not much.

No, not much.

I mean, I’m very, very grateful for where I am and and how it’s all worked out.

I probably work less just because, you know, I work too hard generally.

26:28

I, I think probably like, I’d like to be more present, although I am, I focus a lot on, on being present and it’s something that I, I take very seriously and I’ve tried to put boundaries in place around that.

But I think we could.

We always think we can do better as parents.

26:45

We always mess up kids up.

26:48

Speaker 1

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, these, I think it’s part of it’s the name of the game.

We, we do have to teach us them lessons that they will need when they grown-ups.

Yeah.

Um, So what are you most grateful for?

27:04

Being a mom?

27:07

Speaker 2

I think about this a lot and I’m grateful that my children are healthy.

I if my kids are not healthy, it’s it’s such a trigger for me because I feel like my buckets being shaken and I can’t focus on on other things.

So I, you know, that’s probably what I’m most grateful for is that they are a healthy and they, they’re thriving, you know, they, they’re good kids.

27:35

So I’m very, very grateful for that.

Listen, I mean, they have their issues, but I’m very grateful for that.

27:49

Speaker 1

So your kids are still quite young, but have you ever spoken to them about parenting?

And if you’ve had, what are you telling them about being a parent?

28:00

Speaker 2

Um, not really.

Hey, we haven’t really had too many conversations about parenting.

I think that, you know, they speak about what it would be like to be a parent one day and they, they have their, their own ideas, but it’s not something we’ve really kind of broached yet.

28:19

Speaker 1

I always just tell my kids that it’s super hard and you have to know what you’re getting yourself into if you just do decide to to follow that route.

28:29

Speaker 2

And we’re trying our best.

We’re trying your best.

We’re always doing what we’re doing the best we know how to do.

28:37

Speaker 1

Absolutely.

And then my final question is, what is your North Star when you’re making parenting decisions?

28:44

Speaker 2

That both parents need to be on the same page.

You have to buy.

And I’ll find it very challenging if, if I have a view and my husband has a different view.

So I think that’s that, that we have to be on the same page and you’ve got to have support from both sides.

29:01

My kids love to go to my husband and ask him for something.

When he says no, they’ll have to come to me.

So I, you know, I think that’s pretty normal.

I think that, you know, that we both have to be on the same page.

I, I think to have shared core values is, is crucial in how we want to raise our, our children.

29:22

And that doesn’t always happen.

You know, we have disagreements on, on, on, on different things on, on views and open communication is so important around that and to discuss it so that we we’re not ambushed by the little humans where they think that they, they have the answers that we need to hold firm.

29:42

You know, you need to, to hold your defences.

And the best way to do that is together.

29:48

Speaker 1

Yeah, I agree 100%.

Mandy, thank you so much for your time in your busy schedule to chat to us here on Moments.

I’m in absolute.

29:59

Speaker 2

Awe of.

30:00

Speaker 1

You and what you’ve accomplished and what you stand for.

And there’s a whole community of moms that are so inspired by you and thank you for always telling the truth and for the work you do.

30:15

It’s so amazing.

And yeah, it’s been such a privilege to have you.

30:20

Speaker 2

We don’t get it right all the time.

You know, I make plenty of mistakes and I think to give yourself permission to to do that is is important.

30:32

Speaker 1

You have to have grace with yourself and your kids.

30:36

Speaker 2

Exactly.

Thank you so much.

30:38

Speaker 1

Thank you so much.

Thanks for listening.

Every conversation we have empowers you to be the mom you want to be at home and at work.

Share with your mum friends and colleagues.

This message is important and your voice matters.

30:54

In my next episode, I’m chatting to Charlotte Speak.

She’s from a company called the power of the parent in the United States and they work with companies to create mom friendly workspaces where everyone can thrive.

Don’t miss it.