0:00

Speaker 1

So you’re now on TV shows when the actress is pregnant in real life, but it doesn’t quite fit the storyline, and all of a sudden oversized handbags, countertops, and strategically placed blondes are all over the state.

0:16

While I had a very similar experience the last time I went for a job interview, while I contemplated the ethical implications of not disclosing this information, I was determined not to say a word.

0:31

But two hours later and an interview that felt like brunch with my bestie, I spilled the beans.

I went home and I thought, I’m never gonna hear from her again.

But my honesty didn’t just land me a fabulous job, it also brought me a very treasured friendship.

0:51

Today’s episode is quite personally loaded for me because I am interviewing my boss.

I’m your host, Madge, and this is Moments.

1:14

With me today is Leanne Singer.

Welcome, Leanne, and thank you for joining me.

1:19

Speaker 2

Hello mate, it’s a pleasure to be sitting here and being part of this new beautiful part of your, your story and this great new chapter that you’re writing.

1:29

Speaker 1

Thank you.

Leanne is the sales and marketing director of The Singer Group, she’s the chairperson of Fedhasa Cape, and she’s on the board of Cape Town Tourism and Glendale Home.

She’s also a mummy of three.

1:45

If that’s not an impressive buyer, I don’t know what is.

Leanne, friendships at work is such a bonus and I feel so lucky to work for you because you’re so approachable and understanding and you’ve given me so much grace, especially when my kids were babies that become a mother yourself.

2:05

Change your perspective on workplace dynamics.

2:08

Speaker 2

Wow, it should it match.

You know I used to be that young solo girl.

We used to be so freaking judgy about all the working mums who got to take leave during the school holidays who didn’t have to always work the the after hours.

2:25

I had to pick up the weekends.

Little did I know what these moms were going through to try and have a career and raise children.

So it has given me a totally different perspective on how powerful women actually are.

2:40

It’s given me the grace to look at these women and realise the the sacrifices that we have to make when we choose the right to have a professional career, to look after that part of our our, our personalities and then to have the choice to to raise children.

2:56

So it’s given me grace and it’s given me the knowledge knowing that appointing a working mum is the best commercial decision you can do in your business because there is nobody who gets a job done like a working mum.

3:11

Speaker 1

That is so true.

I’ve seen it so many times because we now to juggle, we now to manage our time and we now to pull a rabbit out of a hat in the in the nick of time.

3:23

Speaker 2

100% which all the characteristics you want when you’re looking for for a colleague, right?

You’re looking for for maximum productivity, you’re looking for creativity, you’re looking for problem solving, you’re looking for grace, you’re looking for empathy.

And who better to do all of that then?

3:40

Speaker 1

A mum.

Now if our children didn’t teach us that, I don’t know what?

Whoa.

So for me, having great friends at work is the difference between the Sunday Blues or not?

What?

From a personal point of view and a leadership role, what do you think are the benefits of great relationships at work?

4:00

Speaker 2

Well, firstly, you know, often said at work, we, we probably spend more time together than what we do with our families, right.

The the demands of what work demands from us in this day and age and particularly our industry being tourism.

So you’ve got to like the person that you’re spending all of this time.

4:19

You, you gotta have mutual values.

You’ve, you’ve gotta like them.

And most importantly, we have to have a sense of humour.

There has to be a, a human connection.

I would hate to have a team who who don’t like coming to work, who have that not any stomach when they come to work on a daily basis because I know they’re not going to show up in their best possible self, not as a human being and not in the delivery that they have to do with the rest of the team.

4:48

So for me, it’s very, very important to make sure that you’re comfortable at work.

You can 100% be yourself.

And what I always say to the team is I want to create that space where you are enjoying what you’re doing, right?

5:04

Then you’re good at what you’re doing.

And that’s what the business needs.

And we don’t get that right often.

I mean, that’s like Nirvana.

But if we can all constantly strive for that, we’re, we’re going to be fooled.

We’re going to be ticking Maslow’s boxes from the top to fall from the bottom to the top.

If we can find that sweet spot where everybody gets to be themselves, they enjoying what they’re doing, they’re good at it, and it makes the business better.

5:27

So that takes the leadership box and from a, from a personal human being interview, because you know that for me, because it’s a family business, because this is a culture that we’re building.

I, I do want people that share our values, that share my sense of humour and that look forward to coming to work because ultimately it’s our family name that’s attached to it.

5:49

And I want people to be part of that family.

5:52

Speaker 1

We are so lucky because so many places are not like that at all, especially in the corporate world.

It’s quite competitive and even cut throat, especially for women unfortunately.

Why do you think we default to comparing ourselves and why do we have this need to win professionally?

6:15

Speaker 2

The reality I I, I think is is a systemic issue and I think the problem lies on so many levels.

The reality is match that we’ve had to compromise along the way, right when we choose to have a career, we’re making compromises.

6:33

We are either compromising the time that we spend with our family and our children or when we choose to have children, we are compromising on our career.

When we’re doing that balancing act that you know, this audience is doing, where we choose career and being a mum, there is going to be collateral damage along the way.

6:54

And not only are you dealing with with with that guilt, those sacrifices where I say yes to this, I’m saying no to that.

The reality is that there are so many other women who are having to make this decision too.

And because we possibly do not have the freedom, the time, the mental capacity to always show up as our male counterparts do, we have to work so much harder to stay ahead.

7:20

This is still the reality for women in the workplace, and there’s always going to be this competitive competitiveness.

But I think the dialogue that you’ve started here is creating a space where we can be honest and vulnerable about this and say this out loud and where we can say to each other, well, hang on, why are we competing?

7:38

How about instead of competing, we acknowledge that we’re all having these same issues and challenges in the workplace and making it easier for us to shine and thrive.

So for me, that is an important dialogue that we that we need to keep having.

And I think as a leader and a team, I try to remind my team that I need every single person there, right?

8:01

It’s not either you or you.

Every person has a particular role to play there.

So there’s no need for competitiveness.

Everybody has to show up with their unique personality, with their unique set of skills.

That’s what my business needs.

8:15

Speaker 1

So as women, how do we shift from comparing to this compassion and even collaboration?

8:25

Speaker 2

I think it’s having discussions like these right now.

I wanted to say, well we need to put our ego aside, but hang on a second.

Giving birth has alternatively.

8:36

Speaker 1

No dignity left.

Yeah, yeah.

8:38

Speaker 2

Has has by default put our ego aside, right?

So we need to put egos aside and be intentional, be conscious about the change that you want to make, right?

Don’t you think it’s going to happen organically?

It may in some lucky situations like we have and like I try and create in our workplace, but you have to be intentional about making this change and having these discussions and with becoming intentional means putting your ego aside.

9:05

It means being vulnerable.

And that is the the, the beautiful gift that we have as women, right?

We can do those things.

So you’ve heard me say this 1000 times match that.

We don’t need another man around the boardroom table.

Don’t a woman shouldn’t try and be a man around the boardroom table freaking sharp as a woman, because you bring that beautiful set of of values and dynamics to to to the table.

9:28

So I think we need to that woman’s beauty is vulnerability.

So, so that’s where we have to start.

We have to be honest and and vulnerable with each other.

I think that’s how systemic change will take place.

9:40

Speaker 1

That is so true, and I think our team is definitely testimony to exactly that.

So eating plays a very big role in our bonding as a team, but how can other women find a place to nurture relationships at work?

10:00

Speaker 2

Not only does eating play valuable team, but your secret hidden talent of freaking cooking and baking plays a very important part in our team.

I just need to add, I think, I think the, the opportunities lie in spending time together, taking time to either connect in the morning or connecting at some point at the end of the day.

10:20

I also think in our industry be very lucky, right, Because our industry is full of functions, conferences, events, this and this and this.

I think it is important for teams to to go and connect in other environments.

Now this doesn’t mean that we have to invite each other for Sunday lunch, you know, every Sunday.

10:39

I think you can take the opportunities created that that workplace social engagements offer and you can connect to those in those environments.

I think that is very important.

And then you could take opportunities Co learning together, right?

10:55

I, I think those are great opportunities, whether we decide to do this online training session together or do this webinar together or attend this conference together.

I think those are very important opportunities that happen organically because often when you try and force these scenarios, it becomes it becomes force.

11:12

It feels unnatural.

I also think that the the what was what, what was hard for us, we turned into a positive where we created a space because we because that dreaded sea word that I said I never want to bring back into a conversation, but because that forcibly separated all of us when we got together again, the time was so special for us to connect.

11:37

We really appreciated physically being together again, that we made a lot of efforts in connecting on different levels.

11:44

Speaker 1

I do also feel like that shared trauma, one of also brought teams together in a very significant way.

11:52

Speaker 2

One hundred, 100%.

I mean, there’s a reason why people call it trauma Botanic, right?

I, I mean, the, the my favourite, my favourite story about you, Madge, is how you, you know when, when, when you were pregnant, I think you had your baby.

You hadn’t even worked for us for how many days before it was lockdown.

12:10

So it was how long before you were physically working with us?

12:13

Speaker 1

So I worked four months and then I went on maternity leave for another four months and then it was I think a week before lockdown and then we only went back in September, so it was 11 months.

12:26

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Beep, beep, beep.

Yeah, we were in person.

Yeah.

Crazy.

12:30

Speaker 1

Crazy, crazy story.

But I mean, there are so many of those in in that specific period.

12:37

Speaker 2

100%.

12:39

Speaker 1

How do women differentiate between real connections, convenient friendships and being abused at work?

Because I think sad reality is that people do use each other to get to to get certain things done at work.

12:54

Speaker 2

Sure.

I think, I think the basis one often has to remind oneself how did this friendship originate, right?

What is the what is the catalyst for this friendship?

Certain, let’s not use the word friendship.

13:13

Actually, let’s use the word relationship because as I always say that every relationship has responsibilities on both sides of the, of the, the spectrum.

You have a, you have a responsibility towards me, I have a responsibility towards you.

13:29

I think that boundaries are very, very important.

And this is something that women generally struggle with, right?

And if we bring the, if we bring in the dynamics of being a working mom, having to often ask for, for flexibility in terms of I’ve got to go do this, I’ve got a sick child, I’ve got this, you know, one always feels sort of on, on the back foot.

13:49

So there’s a very fine line between sitting my boundaries but needing flexibility, wanting to prove that I am worth and I’m not sacking off and they’re not being taken abuse of.

So I think it is very important that you, you as a manager and as a leader that you acknowledge which members of your team are feel that need for that type of recognition, which is not going to serve anybody where they where they’re willing to give so much.

14:20

But at the end of the day, that’s going to be to the detriment of them and yourself.

I’ve been in situations like that where I realise that a colleague has given so much, but it’s actually got to a point where it’s not serving her and not serving me, right.

14:36

So I think conversation and dialogue is very, very important.

And as a leader, you have to identify and encourage your, your colleagues to set those boundaries for themselves.

You and I’ve had many situations with and within our teams where it’s been very, very hard.

And it’s been growth in everybody for, for everybody involved to, to set those boundaries.

14:56

But we know that it’s harder to renegotiate boundaries, right?

So have those tough conversations up front, set those boundaries upfront and you don’t necessarily have to prove your worth by working the longest or working the hardest.

What are my happy as and Emma delivering on my KPIs and that should be the area where I am where I’m assessed that.

15:18

Speaker 1

I saw an analogy recently about friendship being like a tree, like the leaves are temporary and seasonal.

It’s people who come in your life and you have fun, and as soon as the wind blows, they’re gone.

15:33

And then there are other people who are like the branches, and they give a bit more support, but they also crack under pressure.

And then there are those people who root you for life, the roots.

And I’ve had very meaningful profound relationships at work before.

15:52

But inevitably when you don’t work together anymore, we do drift apart.

We we keep in contact but it’s not that strong bond we had when we were together everyday.

So do you think proximity actually plays such a large role?

16:10

Or why do we drift apart from ex colleagues?

16:14

Speaker 2

I think could it have to do with trauma bonding in the workplace working?

I think the reality is proximity certainly does play a role.

You know, I’ve experienced it with my team when I took on all of these other roles that I took on.

I have missed being part of the team.

16:31

I have missed physically being with my team on a more regular basis.

Now.

The pandemic set us up for it.

But if you still have to ask me where is my happy place?

It’s, it’s around the table with you guys where we, we’re focusing on the task at hand, your drive, beautiful sense of humour and then our lunch orders, right.

16:54

That is thought for me, my happy place where I would choose to spend most of my time.

But the reality is, is that proximity is important.

Yes, we have online meetings, we have the opportunity to connect like that, but sitting with someone that the energy that just cannot be communicated through a screen is, is just impossible.

17:14

So one has to make an effort, right?

And then again, life gets so busy and it’s so weird because we tend to neglect friendships more than any other relationships in our lives, right?

Because you sort of assume all.

They know us, they know I love them, so they’re okay if I don’t contact them for six weeks because they know I love them.

17:35

But we only do that with.

17:36

Speaker 1

Friendships.

17:37

Speaker 2

We don’t do it with with other relationships and I haven’t managed to sort that out yet because I always feel my friends are going to send me that grace where’s my boss is not going to send me that grace.

All my kids certainly are not gonna extend me that grace.

But that’s no excuse.

That’s no excuse.

17:53

We have to make an effort because I’ve seen with friendships, if you don’t physically spend time with each other, you are going to drift apart.

I, I’ve as much as I hate to admit it, it is the case.

And especially if the relationship started with another transaction in mind, if it started as a as a work relationship, for example, you have to put an extra effort when you’re not together like that anymore.

18:19

Speaker 1

That’s very true and I’ve also experienced it first hand like I just said, and it’s about making that effort.

18:26

Speaker 2

100% you know, if I think of, of some of the colleagues that I spent time with, in fact, one of them, she we, it was one of my first jobs and she was a single mum with two kids.

And she was the one that I was referring to how I was like, I felt like I was always picking up the pieces.

18:43

Meanwhile, this single mom with two kids, she was the one working her ass off, not me.

I used to go home and you know, boy was before series, but I used to go home, go on dates or go out drinking.

You know, she was the one grafting and she had such a defining role in my life.

18:59

And I missed her birthday recently.

You know, we, I used to contact her for all the years and I feel so bad because this woman was so important in my life and in my career and everything that that she taught me.

So one of the things that I want to do is become more intentional and make more effort with my friendships because just because there’s grace doesn’t mean that it gives me leeway not to make effort.

19:20

Speaker 1

Well, that’s definitely a goal I can get behind in my personal and professional capacity.

Leanne, what would your message be to someone who’s struggling to find her tribe at work?

19:35

Speaker 2

I think that you need to make the effort.

If it is important to you, you are going to have to make the effort and you may not necessarily always walk away with long term friendships, right?

That’s not the reason that you’re there.

19:50

But identify why are we together in this space?

What is our common goal, whether that is working together on a project, whether that is that’s my day-to-day job.

Find out what the goal is.

Why we are together, what is the reason that we are sitting in this room together and then try and find the commonalities.

20:11

I think it must be particularly hard for a mum in that space where either you’ve just come back from maternity leave or you are a new appointee with, with young children who needs a lot of your responsibilities.

And especially if you’re in a, in a corporate environment, I think that must be a really, really tough environment to be in.

20:32

I would say that you need to find an ally somewhere, right?

You gotta find one person, find your ally, find that one person who you think is the person that I can connect with and be vulnerable and perhaps share some of your struggles and, and then slowly grow the space like that.

20:49

But I’m acknowledging 100% that that has got to be a very tricky environment to be in.

And then perhaps, you know, try something like if they’re talented, like you bring some baked goods because that’s always the way somebody’s heart definitely worked.

21:04

Speaker 1

For me in the past.

21:06

Speaker 2

So you’ve been.

21:07

Speaker 1

Outspoken about creating more mom friendly workspaces What can women leaders do to create corporate environments that’s more mom compatible I.

21:20

Speaker 2

Think the first thing is as a leader, as a business owner is to look at how do I measure my team’s performance?

Is that the number of hours that they sit at work?

Oregon is it against output and their KPIs?

That’s the quickest change to make right there.

21:38

I would hate to have somebody sitting at work firstly sitting in traffic for hours just to be at work at a particular time.

That’s wasted time for everybody involved and its sole destroying and there is no purpose for that whatsoever.

21:55

If you’re working in a call centre, absolutely right, you’ve gotta be particular place and time.

But if there is a measure of flexibility, that’s the first thing I’d I’d put in place.

Secondly, use the technology that is available to measure your team’s outputs and performance so that you don’t necessarily look at the number of times that they’ve spent online, but again, you measure it against their output.

22:20

I would then also look at creating environments where you acknowledge equality now an equal opportunities.

Now.

When people hear those words, they always think, well, you know, we’re remuneration is the same.

22:36

Everybody has the same opportunity to apply for everything, but it doesn’t always mean equal is the same.

I’m going to use an extreme example to demonstrate.

If you look at a woman working in the liquor industry and working in a bar, right, is it possible for that woman to have exactly the same equal opportunities to a male counterpart?

22:59

No.

How do we create an environment where a woman who is 7 months pregnant can still work behind a bar because it’s a career for her?

What environment you create so she can still show up in her career and grow professionally and not be held back just because she’s pregnant?

23:15

Or a woman in our industry working as a chef, right?

It can’t be equal.

It has to be different, but it’s got to allow equal opportunities.

So it looks different for for for every industry, but the message that I want to give you is equality does not necessarily mean the same for everybody.

23:34

It’s gotta be adjusted for the particular industry you’re working in, for the particular role that you’re fulfilling in that business.

And leaders, business owners, managers need to realise that studies have shown a diverse workplace with working moms literally means better performance for shareholders.

23:57

The entire productivity, revenue, expense, cutting, everything looks better when you have it all.

Work a diverse workplace and that includes working moms.

That is so.

24:08

Speaker 1

Julianne and I think you are in many ways ahead of your time.

If more people could think the way you do, we’d see less moms giving up dream jobs, leaving the workforce or giving up promotions even for someone else just so she have more time with her family and Maggie.

24:29

Speaker 2

Imagine the the You know, we all would use the word brain drain when we talk about South Africans living in the country.

But the brain drain within our country.

Yeah, woman who has.

24:38

Speaker 1

100% they’ve.

24:39

Speaker 2

Studied for years, they are all that experience that’s lost to the South African economy because these things are overlooked.

It is.

It is just nonsensical to me and.

24:52

Speaker 1

What’s also very profound is the loss of mentorship for younger employees.

It’s so right.

24:59

Speaker 2

You.

25:00

Speaker 1

And definitely one or two other women I’ve worked with has made such a big impact on my life, not just professionally, but as a mom and as a wife and a friend.

I can’t imagine not having those more senior people.

25:17

I won’t say older she.

25:19

Speaker 2

Knows what’s good for her.

25:21

Speaker 1

Senior leaders who’s shaped me as a human being and.

25:29

Speaker 2

You know, so so I guess if you’ve been privileged enough to have been following in the footsteps of a woman like that, learn from a woman like that.

We just need to continue continue, continue doing that.

But women know this message.

25:44

The message needs to go to the allies in the room, to the men in the room.

We need men to become allies to this.

And this is not about, you know, gender empowerment or Women’s Day.

What about always said freaking will know that there’s success when we no longer have woman’s death, right?

26:02

That’s when we’ll know that there’s been systemic change is when we no longer need to have a Woman’s Day, OK?

I think that we need to have these conversations and I think the day that you have a man sitting here, then we’ll know that that’s that’s success, okay.

26:16

Speaker 1

We’ll hold our breath until that day comes.

Leanne, thanks so much for joining me.

I think our listeners are definitely going to have, they’re gonna feel what you said because it’s so profound and it’s so meaningful and I think they’ll relate to it very, very deeply.

26:36

Thank you very.

26:37

Speaker 2

Much which brings us.

26:38

Speaker 1

To the final five, and these are 5 questions that every single guest on Moments have to answer.

So Leanne, which part of your human experience, or what I like to call the HX, has been changed the most by having children?

26:56

Speaker 2

My ego, ego.

I lost my ego and it has been the most liberating thing.

As much as we think ohh it’s not to not have an ego.

To actually not care what people think is so liberating.

27:12

It’s a gift.

27:14

Speaker 1

I think that’s something you taught me to and I can agree 100%.

27:20

Speaker 2

What are you most?

27:21

Speaker 1

Grateful for on your Mum journey.

27:25

Speaker 2

I have a child with special needs and I’m really grateful that I was chosen to be his mum because I look at myself and I think she’s somebody up there really like me because I have this really incredible kid and they chose me to raise this human being.

27:42

So I’m really, really grateful for that.

That’s so beautiful.

What?

27:47

Speaker 1

Would you do differently in hindsight?

27:51

Speaker 2

I would, as a mother and in the workplace, choose connection over correction.

That’s what I would do differently in life.

And that’s something I say to myself all the time.

Connection over correction.

28:08

That’s the.

28:08

Speaker 1

Lesson I think we all we all can take home, especially when you walk.

28:13

Speaker 2

In to your home, Yeah, yeah.

28:17

Speaker 1

So what are you telling your own kids about parenting?

28:22

Speaker 2

Do you want the pier on sale or The real answer that what I’m telling them is that the greatest gift of parenting is you have no idea how loved you are until you’ve had children.

Like, I know that people love me, I know people that I know my children love me and I know my parents love me.

28:40

But until you’ve had your own child, you have no idea that somebody loves me so much that my parents love me.

This amount is the most profound feeling.

And you only experience what real love is when you have your own child and you realise my parents loved me this way.

28:58

Yeah, that’s.

28:58

Speaker 1

Very, very true.

29:00

Speaker 2

So what is?

29:01

Speaker 1

Your North Star when you make parenting decisions.

29:06

Speaker 2

Something that I’ve learned the hard way Match and it’s only recently become an All Star and that is I can communicate my values.

I can’t enforce my values, which is very hard because we think that with our partners, with our friendships, with something we give birth to automatically.

29:29

They’ve got to have my values, my likes, what I believe in the universe doesn’t always have that install.

So my lesson to myself, my new North Star, which I’m really learning to to follow now, is communicate your values.

29:48

You can communicate your values, You must communicate your values, but you can never enforce your values.

Leanne, thanks.

29:55

Speaker 1

Again, for sharing your wisdom and being so inspirational and being such a great mentor for me and coming here to share this with the listeners to today.

It’s it’s.

30:06

Speaker 2

Such a pleasure, mate.

You know when, when I met you, I went back to the team and I said I, I found, I found our perfect teammate.

I’ve found everything that I’ve looked for.

Ohh.

And by the way, she’s pregnant.

I, I’ll never forget the looks on their faces.

I thought I was mad, but I knew that I was making the best possible decision.

30:25

And then a few days later I walked into you at the Cure concert and the deal was done.

I knew that I have a kindred spirit.

I will.

30:32

Speaker 1

Never regret telling Leanne that I was pregnant because not only have I had six years of fun memories, great marketing campaigns, and profound insights into the human experience.

30:50

And I cannot stress this enough, find your tribe at work because Sunday Blues is just not worth it.

By this episode of Moments is brought to you by Babies-R-Us and Toys-R-Us Your Village.

31:06

Through every messy, magical step of parenting, from first kicks to toddler chaos, we are here with love, guidance, and all the essentials you need to thrive.

Because every moment matters.